ASA vs PGF

[flarays]

Did anyone find the results of ASA interesting.....

10u - Tenn
12u - Ark
14u - SoCal
16u - Oh
16u Gold - Tenn
18u - Fla
18u Gold- Fla

Compared to PGF

12u - SoCal
14u - SoCal
14u Platinum - SoCal
16u Platinum - SoCal
16u - Cali
18u Platinum - SoCal
18u - SoCal

If you look at the complete order of finish it is even more pronounced.

 

[HITTER23]

Ummm, PGF championships are only in Cali ? More people are still playing ASA??

 

[flarays]

Ummm, PGF championships are only in Cali ? More people are still playing ASA??

Yep HITTER23 - PGF staying home and attracting all the western powers and other national contenders. ASA staying mid to east coast (except 14's this year and 12's next year) and appealing to the masses. It seems like maybe both parties have etched out their space in the softball world. Not that this is news - but the order of finish in both associations is telling.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Okay, here are the (site) and top 8 finishers.

ASA/USA
10u (TN) - TN, SoCal, TX, TX, AL, SoCal, GA, SoCal
12u (IN) - Ark, TN, GA, TX, IL, IL, TN, AL
14u (SoCal) - SoCal, FL, SoCal, TX, NV, KY, MO, SoCal
16u (VA) - OH, FL, MN, PA, VA, MI, FL, SC
16u Gold (OK) - TN, OK, IN, TN, TX, TX, IL, TX
18u (AL) - FL, AL, MO, NC, IN, FL, TN, TN
18u Gold (OK) - FL, NV, MI, TX, MO, GA, GA, OK

Compared to PGF (SoCal) Premier

12u - SoCal, TX, NorCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal
14u - SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, AZ, NorCal, TX, SoCal, AL
16u - SoCal, IL+etc, SoCal, SoCal, GA, NorCal, GA, GA - Bandits would have repeated if played better defense in Champ
18u - SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, IL+etc, GA, AL, SoCal, SoCal

Platinum results are basically an extension of Premier since they're both in the same vicinity and their qualifiers are combined.
14u Platinum - SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal - was really a Western Regional
16u Platinum - SoCal, SoCal, Cali, SoCal, SoCal, TX, NV, TX
18u Platinum - SoCal, IL, Cali, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal, SoCal

TC/USA Nats (GA) results
14u - TX, IN, GA, LA, TN, FL, NY, TX
16u - GA, OK, FL, NC, VA, GA, SoCal, GA
18u - SoCal, GA, SoCal, FL, TX, TX, FL, GA

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Consider what PGF posted on another board (see below) while looking at PGF Premier's results,

18 Premier - 72 teams
48 out of state teams
6 Nor Cal teams
54/72 non So Cal teams

16 Premier - 68 teams
44 out of state teams
8 Nor Cal Teams
52/68 non So Cal Teams

14 Premier - 64 teams
34 out of state teams
8 Nor Cal Teams
42/64 Non So Cal teams

Pretty good diversity from across the country.

 

[flarays]

SoCal Dad - the diversity is there in the PGF Nats but the results are still pretty one sided. The diversity in attendance is a tribute to the qualifier program in place. Hopefully that continues to expand and the invites decrease. I would be interested to see how many invited teams placed high as opposed to the teams that ran the qualifying route.

ASA seems to really grasp onto the all inclusive - mostly qualifying entrants. It also seems like they are really trying to keep a hold on the mid to east regions.

I think the Wagner's team that finished 2nd in Gold last year and won it this year would have done very well in PGF. They played well against many of those teams in the TNJ event this summer. I would think the Lasers team would have done well in the 16u PGF. I just wish PGF Nats was in the middle of the country!!!!

 

[Lester]

SoCal, sorry we didn't hook up out there this year :-(. Thanks for the data you posted!

 

[Really]

SoCal Dad - the diversity is there in the PGF Nats but the results are still pretty one sided. The diversity in attendance is a tribute to the qualifier program in place. Hopefully that continues to expand and the invites decrease. I would be interested to see how many invited teams placed high as opposed to the teams that ran the qualifying route.

ASA seems to really grasp onto the all inclusive - mostly qualifying entrants. It also seems like they are really trying to keep a hold on the mid to east regions.

I think the Wagner's team that finished 2nd in Gold last year and won it this year would have done very well in PGF. They played well against many of those teams in the TNJ event this summer. I would think the Lasers team would have done well in the 16u PGF. I just wish PGF Nats was in the middle of the country!!!!

True because they already lost the teams west of the Mississippi, and the best teams east of the creek are now headed west to play the best.

That may be true but most of those teams brought there uncommitted kids some being 13 and 14 years old, and they were playing against 17 and 18 year old young ladies. I'm not sure they could compete against them when they have there regular teams. jmho

 

[flarays]

[/B]

True because they already lost the teams west of the Mississippi, and the best teams east of the creek are now headed west to play the best.

That may be true but most of those teams brought there uncommitted kids some being 13 and 14 years old, and they were playing against 17 and 18 year old young ladies. I'm not sure they could compete against them when they have there regular teams. jmho

Normally I agree - but this years TNJ was different. The big teams brought their main teams. Stich, Hanning, Hay, Corn, Burns and others were there for the first PGF Combine. They wanted to make a splash. The competition at Edison was as good as any showcase this summer.

This particular Wagner's team has been around for many years under many different names. It was by far the best team that Florida had produced for many, many years. They would have been a top 10 team PGF IMHO.

 

[Coach Tony]

Normally I agree - but this years TNJ was different. The big teams brought their main teams. Stich, Hanning, Hay, Corn, Burns and others were there for the first PGF Combine. They wanted to make a splash. The competition at Edison was as good as any showcase this summer.

This particular Wagner's team has been around for many years under many different names. It was by far the best team that Florida had produced for many, many years. They would have been a top 10 team PGF IMHO.

Agree with Florida Rays here. We were at the TNJ 16/18 this summer, and we played some monster teams. Had the pleasure of playing the Batbusters Haning and hanging with them for about 4 innings. They were absolutely stacked as were Wagner's team. Saw many top level teams there.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

SoCal Dad - the diversity is there in the PGF Nats but the results are still pretty one sided. The diversity in attendance is a tribute to the qualifier program in place. Hopefully that continues to expand and the invites decrease. I would be interested to see how many invited teams placed high as opposed to the teams that ran the qualifying route.

The invites bring a lot of diversity and those teams fared better on average than the teams that qualified. Here is an analysis posted on another board.

I was curious to see how 18U Premier teams fared vs how they got in.

Returning Berths - Premier: So Cal Athletics 3rd, OC Batbusters Haning 1st, Texas Glory 49th (0-2), Beverly Bandits 3rd, East Cobb Bullets Schnute 5th, Firecrackers Rico 7th, Jersey Intensity 33rd, Gold Coast Hurricanes 49th (0-2), Lady Lightning Gold 9th, KC Peppers 17th

Texas Glory had the worst finish, going from 3rd to a win-less 49th. Their performance in CO shows that some very strong teams go 0-2 in PGF. Over all, the top-12 finishers from 2013 did pretty well in 2014.

Returning Berth - Platinum: Strike Force Guerra 49th (0-2)

I question the logic in promising a Premier berth to Platinum champions, especially in the younger age groups where only 6 returning berths are available.

Invited Teams: Corona Angels Tyson 2nd, Birmingham Thunderbolts Gold 5th, Explosion 7th, So Cal Choppers 9th, Washington Ladyhawks 9th, Team North Florida 9th, Rhode Island Thunder 13th, Nebraska Gold 17th, Sorcerers 17th, Wichita Mustangs 17th, Cal Cruisers Sievers 25th, Grapettes Gold 25th, Texas Impact Gold KC 25th, Atlanta Vipers Jennings 33rd, Tennessee Fury Lewis 33rd, Texas Bombers Gold 33rd, Virginia Legends 33rd, Arizona Storm 49th (0-2), Irvine Sting 49th (0-2), NW Bullets 49th (0-2), Minors Gold 65th

The invited teams did very well for the most part.

Qualified Teams: AZ Firecrackers Randy 33rd, Bownet 13th, Georgia Impact Medlam 33rd, Williamsburg Starz 49th, Aces Express 49th, Texas Firecrackers May 13th, Firecrackers DFW Gold Poole 49th, Originals Bernholtz 13th, DeMarini Zephyrs 33rd, Georgia Impact Pauly 25th, Carolina Elite 17th, Krunch Gold 25th, So Cal Athletics Quarles 49th, Firecrackers Blanco Gold 25th, Batbusters Fox 49th, AASA Merrida 65th, AZ Killer Bees 33rd, New Mexico Sundancers 49th (0-2), Beverly Bandits Team Premier 25th, KG Hitters 17th, Corona Angels Howard 25th, Firecrackers Snyder 49th (0-2), Indiana Magic Gold 33rd, St Louis Esprit Gold Huecker 49th (0-2), Firecrackers DFW Poole 33rd, Vienna Stars 65th, Lower South Liberty 49th (0-2), TX Storm Wymer 33rd, Newtown Rock Garvey 33rd, Michigan Finesse 33rd, New Lenox Lightning 33rd, Firecrackers 18U Blanco 65th, CA Grapettes KO 33rd, Arizona Hotshots Ewing 17th, Illinois Chill Gold 49th, Texas Blaze Gold 65th, Las Vegas Rage Gold 65th, CA Kryptonite 65th

I'm disappointed in how the teams that qualified finished - the best finishes were 13th and lots were at the bottom. I expected the teams that qualified early in each region would do better than the ones that qualified later. However, the 4 teams that qualified in SoCal didn't fare as well as I expected.

At Large: Cal Cruisers Phil/Lyn 17th, Louisville Lady Sluggers 65th

Phil & Lyn's team barely missed qualifying in SoCal and finished higher than all the ones that did qualify.

As much as I dislike the invites, the 18U Premier results indicate PGF is doing a good job there. I'll leave the other divisions for other people to analyze.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

ASA seems to really grasp onto the all inclusive - mostly qualifying entrants. It also seems like they are really trying to keep a hold on the mid to east regions.

ASA oversees all forms of softball - from slowpitch to fastpitch - and they strive to run all the same and as purely as possible. There are problems with that as some view ASA as domonated by SP people and it ignores the different market forces with JO FP. I don't recall them doing anything that targeted holding onto the mid to east regions. Their actions have been broader towards trying to reclaim their status as the undisputed top national championships (e.g. mandating ASA/USA Nats be spread across all 4 territories, mandating Gold participation for Jr. Nat'l Team consideration and adding 16G).

I think the Wagner's team that finished 2nd in Gold last year and won it this year would have done very well in PGF. They played well against many of those teams in the TNJ event this summer. I would think the Lasers team would have done well in the 16u PGF. I just wish PGF Nats was in the middle of the country!!!!

I'm checking whether Haning and Tyson broke form and brought their regular teams to NJ this year. Wagner's team didn't have much TOP competition at 18G Nats. We're familiar with the Lil' Rebels team that finished 2nd and they're good, but they would have had trouble qualifying for PGF Premier out here. The Bandits team that finished 3rd certainly isn't as strong as Conroy's team and possibly not the 2nd Premier team.

 

[flarays]

ASA oversees all forms of softball - from slowpitch to fastpitch - and they strive to run all the same and as purely as possible. There are problems with that as some view ASA as domonated by SP people and it ignores the different market forces with JO FP. I don't recall them doing anything that targeted holding onto the mid to east regions. Their actions have been broader towards trying to reclaim their status as the undisputed top national championships (e.g. mandating ASA/USA Nats be spread across all 4 territories, mandating Gold participation for Jr. Nat'l Team consideration and adding 16G).

Interesting comment about ASA being the governing body of US Softball. I believe that distinction runs out in the next couple of years. A war is brewing to see who earns/buys that going forward.


I'm checking whether Haning and Tyson broke form and brought their regular teams to NJ this year. Wagner's team didn't have much TOP competition at 18G Nats. We're familiar with the Lil' Rebels team that finished 2nd and they're good, but they would have had trouble qualifying for PGF Premier out here. The Bandits team that finished 3rd certainly isn't as strong as Conroy's team and possibly not the 2nd Premier team.

Cool - Stith was there as well and I believe he brought a pretty full team. My point was that the Wagner's team was probably the only one at Gold that would have competed at PGF.

Interesting comment about ASA being the governing body of US Softball. I believe that distinction runs out in the next couple of years. A war is brewing to see who earns/buys that going forward.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Normally I agree - but this years TNJ was different. The big teams brought their main teams.

Haning's OCBB team and Tyson's Corona Angels were clearly the top 18U teams this year based on their performances at Boulder, TC/USA Nats (GA) and PGF Nats. I confirmed Haning's regular team was there and Tyson had a mixture of young kids and only a few of his top players. It's understandable considering Haning didn't go to TC/USA Nats in GA and Tyson did.

Stich, Hanning, Hay, Corn, Burns and others were there for the first PGF Combine. They wanted to make a splash. The competition at Edison was as good as any showcase this summer. lol

The coaches working the combine have nothing to do with the players they brought. Stith's OCBB team is young, which is why they took an invite to play Platinum instead of trying to qualify for Premier. I don't recognize Corn or Burns.

I can't find any results. Which teams played deep in the bracket?

This particular Wagner's team has been around for many years under many different names. It was by far the best team that Florida had produced for many, many years. They would have been a top 10 team PGF IMHO.

Possibly, but Wagner's team didn't fare very well at TC/USA Nats.
- Lost both meaningless pool games against EC Bullets-Schnute (1-4) and Firecrackerr Rico (0-7).
- Placed 5th in pool Bracket C with losses to TN Fury (0-2) and KS Renegades (1-8), which relegated them to the 4th-tier Bronze Bracket.
- Placed 2nd in Bronze with loss to Team North Florida.

 

[Lester]

SoCal, you are ate up in fastpitch!!!

 

[anotherdad]

Haning's OCBB team and Tyson's Corona Angels were clearly the top 18U teams this year based on their performances at Boulder, TC/USA Nats (GA) and PGF Nats.

"Clearly"? I wouldn't put Conroy's Bandits too far outside of this group, if outside at all. I think OCBB may have gotten the better of them over their matchups this summer but I believe they were as good if not better than Tyson's team.

Not a fan of the random draw that put Bandits vs OCBB in the first game of bracket play. Loser of that game (which, I believe, was also the Boulder finals or semis?) was going to be severely handicapped.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

"Clearly"? I wouldn't put Conroy's Bandits too far outside of this group, if outside at all. I think OCBB may have gotten the better of them over their matchups this summer but I believe they were as good if not better than Tyson's team.

No disrespect intended, but I'm not aware of anything Conroy's team did over the summer that would put them on par with the other two. Conroy's team was run-ruled 6-0 by Haning's OCBB, made an impressive 8-game run through the PGF losers bracket against a lot of very strong teams and then were eliminated 3-0 in a 1-hitter by Tyson's CA to finish 3rd. I thought they were on fumes 2 games before that when they barely got past Explosion in ITB, but then they beat EC Bullets 6-0.

Tyson won Boulder, won TC/USA Nats and was 2nd at PGF. Haning finished 3rd in Boulder (lost to Tyson) and won PGF Nats without losing. Both only lost 1 significant game and that was to each other.

Not a fan of the random draw that put Bandits vs OCBB in the first game of bracket play. Loser of that game (which, I believe, was also the Boulder finals or semis?) was going to be severely handicapped.

Conroy finished in an 8-team tie for 9th in Boulder after losing a close 3-2 game to the Originals that finished 2nd.

 

[anotherdad]

No disrespect intended, but I'm not aware of anything Conroy's team did over the summer that would put them on par with the other two. Conroy's team was run-ruled 6-0 by Haning's OCBB, made an impressive 8-game run through the PGF losers bracket against a lot of very strong teams and then were eliminated 3-0 in a 1-hitter by Tyson's CA to finish 3rd. I thought they were on fumes 2 games before that when they barely got past Explosion in ITB, but then they beat EC Bullets 6-0.

Tyson won Boulder, won TC/USA Nats and was 2nd at PGF. Haning finished 3rd in Boulder (lost to Tyson) and won PGF Nats without losing. Both only lost 1 significant game and that was to each other.


Conroy finished in an 8-team tie for 9th in Boulder after losing a close 3-2 game to the Originals that finished 2nd.

Thanks for the details. I thought Conroy had done better at Boulder (and I was too lazy to do the research) than they did. Perhaps getting my years, past, present, future mixed up in my old age.

 

[John Michael Kelly]

Having coached in both the PGF Nationals (for 14u and 18u) and ASA Nationals (14u) in July I really think PGF had, across the board, better teams. Yes they stack the best Cali teams there, but even the out of state teams were excellent for the most part. As time goes on the PGF qualifiers will get more competitive around the country yielding even better teams going to PGF.

As it is now the biggest names in travel softball from SoCal (OC Batbusters, Firecrackers, SoCal Athletics, Corona Angels) rarely go to ASA Nationals, or even attend ASA States, as PGF is the goal. And here is why...ASA is too bureaucratic and, frankly, don't hold the best tournaments. They make you go to these far flung little towns, make you play basically one game per day (our 14 Gold team actually had 2 days off at Nationals this year, which is crazy!) to stretch your hotel stay. Last summer I had the UIC threaten to kick me out of the tournament for wearing a straw hat on the bucket in the dugout to keep the sun off me, as my Dad has battled skin cancer. Really? And the UIC wore a straw hat all week!

I also see Triple Crown Sports picking up steam as they expand across the country. They put on great tournaments including the Fireworks and Sparkler in Colorado and TC Nationals, with only the top 100 organizations invited to participate.

Either way there is good comp at both ASA and PGF Nationals but, come on...a week at the beach in SoCal or a week in Sioux Falls, SD? You make the call!

 

[wow]

PGF is where the biggest west coast teams play hands down. PGF, once it takes off here in Ohio, will be where the best will come If you ever get out West talk to some of the teams out there and and they will say the same thing. I spoke with two big organizations from AZ (Hotshots and Killer bees) and that is their gaol 14U and above.