Brettman!!! High School Rules Question...........

[Captain_Thunder]

I had been told there was very little difference between high school & ASA rules. Yet, I was told by high school coaches yesterday a rule difference that IMO would be a big helper if true.

Was told that while using the DP/Flex in HS - the flex could enter the lineup twice in 2 different spots in the order.
If this is true could be a great strategy for coaches that I have never seen any of them use.

During a game yesterday, The Flex came in & ran for the DP who was 8th in the Batting Order. After that inning they had both DP & Flex in the field. They had the Flex set up to now come up & bat in the 6th spot of the order.
When I asked "Coach" if he got away with one, he & 2 of the other team coaches told me HS was different from summer ball & this was allowed.

Brettman, did I learn something new yesterday, or was I feed a bunch of hot air???
If this is the rule - Why do not more teams take advantage of it? Just imagine having a quality hitting Pitcher, who you want to rest. Somewhere during the game - you could let her come in & bat for weaker hitter, then just replace. Then in 7th inning she could just come in & hit again for another.

 

[BretMan2]

You got a heapin' helpin' of hot air...

There are some differences between ASA and NFHS/high school rules, but this isn't one of them. The only spot in the order where the FLEX player may bat or run is in the spot occupied by the DP.

 

[Chad Strahler]

You got a heapin' helpin' of hot air...

There are some differences between ASA and NFHS/high school rules, but this isn't one of them. The only spot in the order where the FLEX player may bat or run is in the spot occupied by the DP.

Another question in regards to the flex running or batting in spot occupied by dp, can flex only run once then? My assumption is yes just like any other batter besides pitcher and catcher. Just curious after reading this post.

 

[coachjwb]

There is no form of baseball or softball where the same person can be in two different spots in the order (with the possible exception of a showcase where the games don't count). As for the Flex running twice for the DP, yes, she can do that, but then the DP is out of the game. In high school, every player including bench players can re-enter once. But once a player has left for the second time, they are out of the game.

 

[BretMan2]

There is no form of baseball or softball where the same person can be in two different spots in the order (with the possible exception of a showcase where the games don't count). As for the Flex running twice for the DP, yes, she can do that, but then the DP is out of the game. In high school, every player including bench players can re-enter once. But once a player has left for the second time, they are out of the game.

Yes, if it's the same DP, then after she's run for twice by the FLEX she's out of the game. But if you substitute a different player (player from the bench) into the DP spot, then the FLEX could run for her, too.

So the FLEX the DP as many times as you want during the game, assuming you have bench players to keep substituting into the DP position.

 

[wvanalmsick]

I had been told there was very little difference between high school & ASA rules. Yet, I was told by high school coaches yesterday a rule difference that IMO would be a big helper if true.

Was told that while using the DP/Flex in HS - the flex could enter the lineup twice in 2 different spots in the order.
If this is true could be a great strategy for coaches that I have never seen any of them use.

During a game yesterday, The Flex came in & ran for the DP who was 8th in the Batting Order. After that inning they had both DP & Flex in the field. They had the Flex set up to now come up & bat in the 6th spot of the order. When I asked "Coach" if he got away with one, he & 2 of the other team coaches told me HS was different from summer ball & this was allowed.

Brettman, did I learn something new yesterday, or was I feed a bunch of hot air???
If this is the rule - Why do not more teams take advantage of it? Just imagine having a quality hitting Pitcher, who you want to rest. Somewhere during the game - you could let her come in & bat for weaker hitter, then just replace. Then in 7th inning she could just come in & hit again for another.

Mason, did the Flex actually bat in the 6 spot? The DP and the flex are tied together in the batting order however the DP and the flex can both be in the field on defense at the same time. If the DP is batting in the 8 spot, then that is where the Flex has to bat. If the DP is in on defense for another player, say the SS, batting in the 3 spot, the SS is still officially in the game in the 3 spot and the DP still bats in the 8 spot. The DP and Flex cannot be in the game at the same time while on offense.

That is the way I remember the DP/Flex rule.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Some of the automated scoring programs cause confusion when the DP plays defense for a player other than the flex by erroneously labeling the player on the bench as 'DP'. NCAA changed their rules to now refer to them as "Offense Player (OP)", however some NCAA boxscores still erroneously show DP in multiple batting order spots.

Adding New Term: Offense Player (OP) (new Rule 8.1.2.5 and chart)
Offense Player (OP) The player in the batting order who is not playing defense because the DP has entered to play defense for her.
RATIONALE- PREVIOUSLY THIS PLAYER WAS MISTAKENLY REFERRED TO AS THE TEMPORARY DP ALTHOUGH SHE NEVER HAD ANY OF THE RIGHTS OF A DP. THIS ADDITION IS TO STOP THAT MISREPRESENTATION.

 

[Captain_Thunder]

Mason, did the Flex actually bat in the 6 spot? The DP and the flex are tied together in the batting order however the DP and the flex can both be in the field on defense at the same time. If the DP is batting in the 8 spot, then that is where the Flex has to bat. If the DP is in on defense for another player, say the SS, batting in the 3 spot, the SS is still officially in the game in the 3 spot and the DP still bats in the 8 spot. The DP and Flex cannot be in the game at the same time while on offense.

That is the way I remember the DP/Flex rule.

She was ON Deck to Hit when the 5th spot made the last out of the inning. Game ended in bottom of 7th.....
So officially nothing done wrong in game. But what the Coaches thought they were doing or at least their explanation showed they had NO Clue to actual rule.........
Thought they were teaching me something for a minute.........LOL

 

[jimhamrick]

Already stated abode, but it is easier for me to remember and manage with these specifics with DP and FLEX in the lineup.
1) Any 9 of the 10 can play on defense (Flex and DP can be on D at the same time
2) Flex can only hit for the DP
3) When Flex hits or DP (only player she can hit for) - your lineup goes down to 9
4) You can re-enter a DP to take lineup back to 10
5) most thin when Flex hits - DP option is done for the game - not true

 

[wvanalmsick]

She was ON Deck to Hit when the 5th spot made the last out of the inning. Game ended in bottom of 7th.....
So officially nothing done wrong in game. But what the Coaches thought they were doing or at least their explanation showed they had NO Clue to actual rule.........
Thought they were teaching me something for a minute.........LOL

Yep, as a former scorekeeper, I would have been dripping with saliva waiting for her to finish her at-bat so that we could appeal the incorrect batter.

Not too many times the scorekeeper gets credit for the out (for all the scorekeepers out there, just kidding). Hmmm, how is that scored?

 

[SoCal_Dad]

It would only be batting out of order of the coach reported her as batting for the actual DP since the DP wasn't due up. In OP's case, it would be an Illegal Batter/Player/Substitution since the Flex can't play offense in any other position in the batting order than the DP.

Bretman - What would you have done if the flex had come up to bat in the wrong spot and her coach reported the change to you? Would you have prevented the Illegal Batter by refusing the change? My understanding is that is customary when a coach tries to report a change that would result in an illegal player/substitution.

 

[BretMan2]

If a coach asks to make an illegal substitution, the answer he'll get from me is, "You can't do that". This is considered as preventive umpiring.

The season is young, but I've had to say, "You can't do that", quite a few times already! It's kind of amazing how misinterpreted the DP/FLEX gets and how a lot of people have a poor understanding of it, especially considering that it's been a rule for about a decade.

But if you think that's bad...how's everyone doing with the new ASA rule that allows you to bat your entire roster? If you think that the DP/FLEX has people confused, this new ASA rule will have them pulling their hair out! It has all sorts of different ins and outs that don't exist in any other "bat the roster" rules. I think I'm getting a handle on it- after we got a TEN-PAGE handout explaining it at our last umpire meeting!

 

[Chad Strahler]

Ok fill me on this one with this rule. HS coach has his pitcher as dp, flex playing left field but not in the batting lineup. He had a girl batting 9th that wasn't in any position at all. Just a batter. So the dp and flex were not tied together in anyway. What is the legality of this in HS games or any for that matter?

 

[BretMan2]

Ok fill me on this one with this rule. HS coach has his pitcher as dp, flex playing left field but not in the batting lineup. He had a girl batting 9th that wasn't in any position at all. Just a batter. So the dp and flex were not tied together in anyway. What is the legality of this in HS games or any for that matter?

This could be done legally.

Since the DP can play defense for any player without it being a substitution, then the DP would have to have been playing defense for the girl in the 9 spot.

FLEX is always playing defense, so both DP and FLEX can be on defense at the same time.

I will assume that the coach was running all of these changes through the plate umpire, who of course understood the rule and made sure all was on the up and up!

 

[Chad Strahler]

Didn't start the game. Was no substitutions. I caught before the start. Here is how his starting line up was. If it was legal I have never seen it used this way in my life as a coach for several years. Here was his starting line up. He didn't have any positions filled in except pitcher which also labeled dp, catcher, flex which was 10. I filled the rest of the positions for the purpose of this message. If I'm wrong I will personally apologize to guy because the umps we're seeing it how we were.

 

[BretMan2]

Something is off about that line-up. It doesn't match up with what you posted.

You said the number 9 batter "didn't have a position and was just a batter". But there is a defensive position listed for her on the line-up card.

The FLEX player doesn't have a defensive position listed. You said the FLEX was playing defense in the field.

Is this the line-up card the other team gave to you, or the one they gave to the umpire? If it's the one they gave to you, then that's more or less just a courtesy. Nothing dictates how it needs to be filled out. The card given to the umpire is the "official" card. That one should have all the positions listed and be filled out entirely. The umpire should make sure it's filled out correctly before accepting it at the plate conference.

 

[Chad Strahler]

He actually only had the dp flex pitcher and catcher filled in. His flex was playing left field. I forgot to add that before I took the pic so assume the flex also has a lf beside it. Again the line up card officially turned in at the beginning didn't have any positions filled out. We talked prior to everything starting and I was convinced he was right, but then I convinced myself I was and so on. We debated for about 30 minutes prior to game start, because well... The umpire was not even sure and was confused as well. My original message wasn't very clear, my apologizes. That's why I sent the line up pic. On one hand it seems right on the other it doesn't so just making sure for future how the rule is really supposed to be.

 

[BretMan2]

The rules do require the line-up to be filled out properly. That includes player name, uniform number and position. So the plate umpire should have got all that straightened out before the game even started.

"Line-up card management" isnt as sexy as calling balls and strikes or hammering outs on bang-bang plays, but it's still something that can save a lot of headaches during a game and still something the plate umpire is responsible for. Keeping track of the batting order, defensive positions, subs, courtesy runners, charged conferences, and DP/FLEX changes is an area where some umpires just kind of blow throught it without giving it the attention it deserves. And they can usually skate by without too much trouble- up until the point when any one of these does become an issue during a game. Then the plate umpire better have a good record on his line-up card to sort things out.

Bad line-up card management aside, I would still say that what this team was doing was legal. They just didn't do a good job of recording it on their line-up card and, apparently, the umpire didn't do a good job of making sure the card was filled out correctly.

 

[Chad Strahler]

Thanks, so the 9th batter doesn't have to be labeled anything? She wasn't going to be a fielder or a dp. Just a name on the card and hitting. The batting line up is what counts so don't all of them have to be something? Wouldn't the 9th batter be considered and eh?

 

[BretMan2]

Thanks, so the 9th batter doesn't have to be labeled anything? She wasn't going to be a fielder or a dp. Just a name on the card and hitting. The batting line up is what counts so don't all of them have to be something? Wouldn't the 9th batter be considered and eh?

The 9th batter should of had some position listed to start the game (as should all players in the line-up).

Then, as soon as the coach hands his line-up to the umpire, all he has to do is say, "My DP will be playing defense for #9". The DP can play any defensive position for any player at any time. In this case, that position would just happen to be F1.