NSA rule question

[default]

We were just at a NSA tournament and I saw a call by the umpire that I thought was incorrect. Things may have changed since I last saw this called so I may be wrong. While team "A" was batting one of their players came up to bat and took a (1) pitch, Then the score keeper and manager on Team "B" approched the umpire and said the the player had batted out of turn. The umpire allowed the appropiate batter to bat and the game continued. I always thought that you had to wait for the first pitch to be pitched and then the batter would be called out. The umpire said that they can swap (i.e. the right batter) and that the correct batter would assume the count at that point. Is this rule different in the other divisions? (ASA, USSSA, PONY etc.) THANKS!

 

[default]

here is a link to the rule (http://www.playnsa.com/pdfs/NSA_Rule_Book_2006.pdf). Page 97, rule 7 section 2. The call was correct. The team at bat would have recieved an out after the wrong batter's at bat, but before the first pitch to the next batter in the line up

 

[default]

Jerry,
I was in the same situation before (NSA), and I believe the rule was that you could have the correct batter take over the current count any time durring that at bat, however if the girl that was batting out of order reached first base (via walk, hit, hit by ptich, etc.) the other team could appeal before the next pitch and then the out would be served and the runner removed from first base. In other words, a witty defensive team that catches this may (without any serious comotion to tip off the other team) intentinaly walk the batter who is batting out of order then appeal for an easy out. Hope I got this right ?

 

[default]

Clever CoachJohn I like that !! lol ? ?;D

 

[default]

As far as that being ASA also, If I recall, we had the same situation ASA and the correct batter just took over the count.

 

[default]

It does not matter whether you walk the "Out of Order" batter or let them hit, when you appeal the "Out of Order" batter and you are victorious in your appeal, then all base runners return to the bases that they held before the batter hit the ball or recieved the base on balls. ?If you have base runners, any stolen bases, runs scored, or outs that they acheived prior to the hit or ball four stand.

So...if you know that the batter is not the correct batter, it would be best to serve up the lollipop right down the middle of the plate and let her hit it on the first pitch.

Just a little side note, the girl's name has priority over the jersey number that was reported for her. ?The sanctioning bodies realize that coaches are rushed and sometimes put the wrong jersey number on the score card and this should not be a penalty on the girl. ?So, if the scorecard has Suzy Jones, #15 at bat, but Suzy Jones' real jersey number is 16, then everthing is okay.

 

[default]

Something else to consider, you can also take the result of the at bat...so if there are runners on, you may want to see if you can turn the double play, or better yourself in some other way (eliminate a speedy runner in exchange for a slower one, etc).

 

[default]

Something else to consider, you can also take the result of the at bat...so if there are runners on, you may want to see if you can turn the double play, or better yourself in some other way (eliminate a speedy runner in exchange for a slower one, etc).

Bear, So you are saying you do not "have" to say anything? HMMMMM good point!
Say that during the pitches thown to this (out of order) batter you get two outs on attempted steals. The out of order batter walks to 1st. Next batter up is not strong at bat (easy out) You just tuck your head and stay quiet? ;D

 

[default]

Not unless you want to revert the runners and take the out, then you have to say something before the next batter takes a pitch, but... Let's say there is a runner on first, and the batter who is out of order is known for grounding out. In this instance you may want to try for the double play. If you get it take the result of the at bat; if you don't but get the lead runner decide whether the lead runner is a bigger threat to take extra bases than the out of order batter, if so again take the result of the play. If you miss both runners, or end up in a worse position, take the out and revert the runners.

 

[default]

You have gotten some very answers to the your question in several different circumstances, which is great. Just keep in mind that to use the situation to your advantage, you should not bring it to the umpires attention until after her at bat is completed, but before the next pitch to the next batter. If you bring it up while she is batting then the umpire will require the correct batter to bat and take over the count whatever it may be.

That is probably where you misunderstood the result previously. The out of turn batter must complete her turn at bat, before she can be called out on the appeal, and I am pretty sure it must be before the first pitch to the next batter.

I hope this will make it clear to you.

 

[default]

Say that during the pitches thown to this (out of order) batter you get two outs on attempted steals. The out of order batter walks to 1st. Next batter up is not strong at bat (easy out) You just tuck your head and stay quiet? ?;D

That's not your best option!

All outs made during the improper batter's stand. (NSA rule #7-2-b) So, matter what you do after the improper batter reaches first, you already have two outs.

If you then appeal the improper batter (before a pitch is thrown to the next batter) you will have your third out! Staying quiet is an option, if it happens to work to your favor, but in this case your best bet would be to appeal the batting out of order and end the inning.

Other notes on this appeal: The batter called out on this appeal is the one that was SUPPOSED to bat in that spot in the order, not the improper batter. After the appeal, the correct batter to bat next is the one whose name appears immediately AFTER the batter who was supposed to bat and was called out.

 

[default]

bretman you said
Other notes on this appeal: The batter called out on this appeal is the one that was SUPPOSED to bat in that spot in the order, not the improper batter. After the appeal, the correct batter to bat next is the one whose name appears immediately AFTER the batter who was supposed to bat and was called out.

so lets say #1 batter was supposed to bat but instead #2 batter bats. after the appeal, #2 bats again?

 

[default]

Correct.

 

[default]

Quite honestly, batting out-of-order calls can make my head spin! Just to make matters worse, ASA, NSA and NFHS all have some slightly different interpretations on how this is handled.

I'll have to qualify my answer by saying that my umpire certification is for ASA ball. The NSA rule book is not 100% specific on the point you raise, but the ASA book is.

The ASA rule specifies that if the next batter due up is the improper batter that already batted, and that improper batter was put out as a result of her at-bat, then she DOES NOT bat again. You skip her and go to the next batter. The out recorded against her stands.

If the improper batter had reached base safely, then the BOO was appealed, she would be removed from base and DOES bat again. The result of her first at-bat is ignored. An out is recorded against the proper batter who should have batted.

As for the NSA ruling, my reading of their on-line rule book doesn't totally answer your question. The NSA on-line Case Book does spell out a couple of situations where the improper batter safely reaches base, BOO is appealed and the improper batter bats again.

What I don't see specifically spelled out for NSA is what happens when the improper batter makes an out. The implication would be that, since all outs stand, this would be ruled on the same as under ASA rules.

So, to answer your question: From an ASA standpoint the #2 batter would bat again if she had reached base safely, she would not if she was put out as a result of her at-bat. NSA seems to have the same interpretation, but I would defer that opinion to a registered NSA official.

 

[default]

Bretman

To further beat a already dying horse, does the ASA rule than actually allow for TWO OUTS (the batter who was supposed to bat in the #1 spot, and the #2 batter who made an out while batting out of order) in the same "play", so to speak?

 

[default]

For ASA play, yes, you would have two outs. One against the batter that should have batted and one more if the improper batter made an out. (If the improper batter reached base safely, then her at-bat is nullified, she is removed from the bases, and you would have only one out).

For NSA play, my reading of their on-line rules and Case Book leads me to conclude that their ruling would be exactly the same as the ASA ruling. (And it also seems that this is a new rule change for 2006. In pervious years this would not have been the case).

For NFHS play, you have something completely different! Under high school rules you can only get one out on this appeal- the out for the batter that should have batted. The improper batter's at-bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout, no matter what the outcome of her at-bat was. (This is how NSA seemed to rule prior to their 2006 rule change).

If all of that isn't confusing enough, I would imagine that USSSA, AFA, PONY, or any of the other alphabet soup of different softball organizations probably have their own take on how this is handled!