Opinions on different bracket arrangements.

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A compromise between single and double elim is what our local ASA association does for their championship - it's a shortened double elim where they don't play the last 3 games. The last 2 undefeated teams in the winners bracket play for 1st and 2nd place; the rest of the teams play for 3rd place in the losers bracket.

The time saved on those last 3 games for just 3 teams can be used to make the games longer for all the teams. It's also safer for the players in terms of overuse injuries.

 

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So Cal Dad,

I have used the format you are talking about for larger fields--say 12 or more. I liked it. The trouble here has been that is rarely used and even when you publish it in the tourn rules, very few coaches really read that part. So when a team loses its first game, they then realize that they "Can not" come all the way back and the griping starts--but after the events I used it, the coaches would come up and say their team was gassed and like you said, that is when the injuries are more likely to happen. If you have 8 teams in it, then a straight double elim works OK, if you can spread it out over 2 days.

There isn't a right or wrong answer to formatting as long as the TD announces it in the rules. As you can see by responses, some favor DE and some favor pool play. If pool play advances every team to an elimination round, then that allows coaches more freedom to get all their players in and, if only certain teams advance in pool play, the team has to play it more to the vest to be in the "Gold" division. If I had a team with 3 or 4 good pitchers, I would always like to play in events where everyone advanced, but if I only had 1 very good and 1 average pitcher, wearing them out in pool play would take away any advantage of very good pitcher.

 

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I prefer double elimination as well, but there just doesn't seem to be many tournaments out there that do it.

Dayton Metro and Lasers are two good ones that come to mind that have DE. Isn't GAPSS that way as well?

Yes, GAPSS is that way.....................until the rain hits.:lmao:

"Oh NO he didn't"

 

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I thought that was what practices and friendlies were for. My opinion, every game is important.

Important for what?

 

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Double elimination.
-prevents home team from seeding thier teams to end up #1 seed.
-hate to be the 8 a.m. sunday game and run the risk of being done especially when we travel.

 

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Do a pool play 4 divisions with 3 teams in each division then have each team play the teams in the division. best record gets highest seed in each divsion. bracket will look great on sunday. I know they ACC still does pool play in baseball and the results each year are very good.

 

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DE tourneys are the favorite.

 

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Important for what?

Seeding. Too many times a team that "blows off" pool play games are the teams playing at 8 am due to runs allowed. I'm all for getting the girls as much rest as possible for those long Sundays.

I also vote for Dbl. E

 

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Double elimination.
-prevents home team from seeding thier teams to end up #1 seed.

Huh, that is the dumbest thing I have heard..How if everyone can see the results could the home team cheat and place their team as #1..... and if a org ever does that than NEVER EVER GO BACK, they will get the hint when no one shows ever again..

 

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I prefer double elimination as well, but there just doesn't seem to be many tournaments out there that do it.

Dayton Metro and Lasers are two good ones that come to mind that have DE. Isn't GAPSS that way as well?

The Sheer Madness Invitational is Double Elimination June 10-12. It requires a good number of games more to pull off, but we think it offers the teams the best competition possible.

My advice would be to set up the Bracket play with the top 4 teams getting byes. You could do 3 pools of 4 and take your 3 pool winners plus a wildcard team determined by tiebreaker to get the last bye or you could do 4 pools of 3 with cross pool games if you wanted. Either way stick with all 12 teams in the bracket.

Hate the Silver/Gold etc.... idea.

 

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thanks for all the responses guys! This is what I was looking for. I would love to do DE but I don't think we have the fields to effectively do it. We have access to only 2 of the 6 fields on Friday that we have on Saturday.

Double elimination is definitely more exciting.

Otherwise, what is wrong with a first round bye to the top four teams. Eight remaining teams play round one then the four winners play the four bye teams and it all works out.

I agree too regarding the platinum, gold, and silver divisions. It's a bit too feel good for me.

This ^^ is what I was leaning towards but a few experienced coaches in the organization was worried about having multiple teams at 3-0 in a division and then having R/A (the next tie breaker) decide the elimination play for Sunday. I thought it was nice because it put some emphasis on Saturday play as well.

I have yet to try and see what the bracket would look like with 3 divisions of 4 where all pool games are against someone in your division.

 

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If you go that route...with 3 divisons of four teams.... then your seeding for the single elims with 12 teams and four having byes... you are going to have three (3) first place pool winners and one (1) second place finisher ( best record/runs given up/ etc.. tie breakers) in the byes.

Now, comes the bracketing to make sure nobody played against each other in the pool play to start off the single elims... but that can't be decided until you KNOW which 2nd place finsiher is getting the bye.... then you can fill in the spots where the other 2nd place finishers go in the single elims.

But, you'd have to first find out who the 2nd place finishers that gets the bye is.. then you can fill in the bracket.

If you play all your pool games ( 3) on Saturday per every team and start single elims on Sunday morning.. then you can do this type of last minute bracketing then....

 

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Now, comes the bracketing to make sure nobody played against each other in the pool play to start off the single elims... but that can't be decided until you KNOW which 2nd place finsiher is getting the bye.... then you can fill in the spots where the other 2nd place finishers go in the single elims.

But, you'd have to first find out who the 2nd place finishers that gets the bye is.. then you can fill in the bracket.

If you play all your pool games ( 3) on Saturday per every team and start single elims on Sunday morning.. then you can do this type of last minute bracketing then....

Are you suggesting they determine the 2nd place team that gets the bye based on pool play results (i.e. best record and tie-breakers)? I've usually seen it done in advance by random draw...

 

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Actually this is what I was looking at.

Lets take Pool "A" for instance.

A1 - A2
A1 - A3
A1 - B1

Sunday's game wold be against another pool, say Pool "C"
That would guarantee 4 games against 4 games against different teams.

 

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The Sheer Madness Invitational is Double Elimination June 10-12. It requires a good number of games more to pull off, but we think it offers the teams the best competition possible.

My advice would be to set up the Bracket play with the top 4 teams getting byes. You could do 3 pools of 4 and take your 3 pool winners plus a wildcard team determined by tiebreaker to get the last bye or you could do 4 pools of 3 with cross pool games if you wanted. Either way stick with all 12 teams in the bracket.

Hate the Silver/Gold etc.... idea.

Mark,

Why not do 4 pools of 3 then you do not have to worry about the wildcard? If you have 4 teams in a pool and only two pool games, who can really say who the number one is if they didn't get a chance to play each other? Just a thought.

 

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Are you suggesting they determine the 2nd place team that gets the bye based on pool play results (i.e. best record and tie-breakers)? I've usually seen it done in advance by random draw...

After pool play you have 3 - 1st place finishers and 3 - 2nd place finishers..... and four BYES.

So 1 2nd Place pool play team has to get the bye. And surely you wouldn't know which one... until pool play is over.

SoCal... In most single elims here in Ohio... they base positioning in single elims by pool play results. 2nd and 3rd and 4th has their locations pre- determined in the single elim bracket.

As a TD, if you are playing 3 pool and single elims event....and three 4-team divisions.... you want to make sure that NO team in the first round of the single elims is playing someone they already played.

( This needs to happen so the teams that go home after the first round of the single elims.. which is 4 teams actually.... you have to make sure those four teams played four different opponents in their four game guarentee. ) They played three in their pool play and did a division crossover in the first round of the single elims.

The problem is.. if 2nd place is decided in the last round and you have to wait and see which 2nd place team out of three teams is going to get the bye based on best record, then runs given up, and on down the line of tie breakers.

Problem with that is delaying the coaches knowledge of when they play on Sunday morning... until pool play is over. And if pool play last round starts at 9:30 pm .... then it is a problem.

But, look to the bright side.. maybe you have another age division that you can play the late games... and you would be able to give the coaches early enough notices then.

 

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After pool play you have 3 - 1st place finishers and 3 - 2nd place finishers..... and four BYES.

So 1 2nd Place pool play team has to get the bye. And surely you wouldn't know which one... until pool play is over.

SoCal... In most single elims here in Ohio... they base positioning in single elims by pool play results. 2nd and 3rd and 4th has their locations pre- determined in the single elim bracket.

As a TD, if you are playing 3 pool and single elims event....and three 4-team divisions.... you want to make sure that NO team in the first round of the single elims is playing someone they already played.

( This needs to happen so the teams that go home after the first round of the single elims.. which is 4 teams actually.... you have to make sure those four teams played four different opponents in their four game guarentee. ) They played three in their pool play and did a division crossover in the first round of the single elims.

The problem is.. if 2nd place is decided in the last round and you have to wait and see which 2nd place team out of three teams is going to get the bye based on best record, then runs given up, and on down the line of tie breakers.

Problem with that is delaying the coaches knowledge of when they play on Sunday morning... until pool play is over. And if pool play last round starts at 9:30 pm .... then it is a problem.

But, look to the bright side.. maybe you have another age division that you can play the late games... and you would be able to give the coaches early enough notices then.

A couple of thoughts.

Post the brackets outline and the tie breakers. I know we usually have it all figured out way before anything is posted.

Have the brackets posted on line so you can look at them from hotel. This way everyone can leave and get some rest.

I do not think it is a huge deal other than the 9:30pm game issue. No way around that one.

 

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Actually this is what I was looking at.

Lets take Pool "A" for instance.

A1 - A2
A1 - A3
A1 - B1

Sunday's game wold be against another pool, say Pool "C"
That would guarantee 4 games against 4 games against different teams.

So this way you are doing 4 divisions of three teams

A1 plays A2, A3, B1
A2 plays A1, A3 B2
A3 Plays A1, A2, B3

B1 plays B2, B3, A1
B2 plays B1, B3, A2
B3 plays B1, B2, A3

C1 plays C2, C3, D1
C2 plays C1, C3, D2
C3 plays C1, C2, D3

D1 plays D2, D3, C1
D2 plays D1, D3, C2
D3 plays D1, D2, C3



Now, for single elims line-up... A-1 is now 1st place A-2 is 2nd place, etc

.....................A-1 Bye
C2 vs B3


.....................C-1 Bye
B2 vs D3

.....................B-1 Bye
D2 vs A3

.....................D-1 Bye
A2 vs C3

Now, you have the first four teams leaving the tournament... and the 4 teams who put them out.... ALL playing four different teams in their four games. So 8 out of 12 teams play someone different in their four games. Maybe even the teams with bye as well. Just matters who wins and then moves out to play them.

 

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A couple of thoughts.

Post the brackets outline and the tie breakers. I know we usually have it all figured out way before anything is posted.

Have the brackets posted on line so you can look at them from hotel. This way everyone can leave and get some rest.

I do not think it is a huge deal other than the 9:30pm game issue. No way around that one.

Usually I give two coaches per team a copy of the pool play and a copy of Sunday's single elims.... that way they can follow along the way. Tournament tie breakers rules are usually included in the packet....

Tie breaker rules should be on bracket board at the park.

It's just that 9:30 last round of the pool and determining who is the 2nd place teams after pool play and then seeding it.

I suggested a way in the post above this one... having four divisions of three teams

 

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So this way you are doing 4 divisions of three teams

A1 plays A2, A3, B1
A2 plays A1, A3 B2
A3 Plays A1, A2, B3

B1 plays B2, B3, A1
B2 plays B1, B3, A2
B3 plays B1, B2, A3

C1 plays C2, C3, D1
C2 plays C1, C3, D2
C3 plays C1, C2, D3

D1 plays D2, D3, C1
D2 plays D1, D3, C2
D3 plays D1, D2, C3



Now, for single elims line-up... A-1 is now 1st place A-2 is 2nd place, etc

.....................A-1 Bye
C2 vs B3


.....................C-1 Bye
B2 vs D3

.....................B-1 Bye
D2 vs A3

.....................D-1 Bye
A2 vs C3

Now, you have the first four teams leaving the tournament... and the 4 teams who put them out.... ALL playing four different teams in their four games. So 8 out of 12 teams play someone different in their four games. Maybe even the teams with bye as well. Just matters who wins and then moves out to play them.

This is practically verbatim the way I set it up. This seems the fairest way, right?