Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching scholarships

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My dd was 10u this past season. She was picked up as a pitcher for a VERY young 10u team. I believe only 2 were actually 10. We played a tourney where dd pitched her guts out. (brownsfan and jmeutown can back me on this one...) She was pitching against a team who could hit the cover off the ball, so they were hitting her pretty well. A lot of the hits were fieldable, but the fielders weren't handling it. She lost something like 12k's because the catcher couldn't hold the pitch or couldn't make the throw to 1st. She was fielding balls down the 1st and 3rd baselines and in the middle infield holes. I am not knocking her team. It was (I think) their 1st tourney and I think many of them were nervous and inexperienced. However, it does go to show that it doesn't matter how well a pitcher pitches... if there's no fielding behind her, it's all for naught. As the season went on, the team got better and better and they won a 9u tourney at the end of the season (without dd and the other 10yo).

I used to think the pitcher was the most important player. I've made comments on here about how fee reductions made sense given the money the parents put into instruction. However, the longer we are associated with travel, the longer dd pitches, the more I see the absolute necessity of a great catcher, great fielders, great hitters. Everyone has a role, all are important, and ultimately, it's the pitcher and her parent's choice to be a pitcher and spend the extra money.

 

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Lilron:

Sure it is different at 14U than 10U, but I'm not sure it is different in ways that pertain to this thread. Pitchers get better but fielders and hitters get better and without those fielders and hitters, the pitcher is not likely to get a lot of wins. There are some pitchers that can mow them down at 14U or 16U, but that's really not the norm (I'm thinking 5-8 at 16U in Ohio who can strike out 80% of the opposing offense in high quality competition, and she still needs a catcher for the 80% and fielders for the remaining 20%).

I say kudos to crystlemc for at least being open-minded about the issue. For me, it's not about who is the most critical player, it's about whether that critical player has the supporting cast to get enough of the critical wins. Glass half full or glass half empty? It's that close of a decision whether pitcher scholarships are a good thing or something the organization decides not to embrace. Which is why I think it is such an interesting issue.

 

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Couple of things. First, I have no idea why the LilRon post to which I was referring immediately above got deleted. Sorry for any confusion. Second, upon reflection I'm thinking that my percentage of strikeouts for the very best travel ball pitchers who play very competitive teams should probably be closer to 60% than 80%.

 

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Last time I checked my wallet it was pretty empty. Hitting lessons the last three years have been expensive.

 

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I'll chime in... marketing is marketing and the Hawks are getting a significant stream of it right now. Nice job Doug... quit smiling.

Now, marketing and style are at times very close or can be considered symantics. You decide on this topic.

For us, and we have really good pitching.... we treat all as equals. And to be honest, I put equal financial and playing time pressure on all of our players. If you don't perform/pay, you will sit... just as our pitchers do. We have 5 pitchers, yes 5. Three will see consistant time. All of those first 3 would be a number 1 or 2 for any team in Ohio and that would be debatable except for 2 teams that I know of (Lasers and Doug's team and I'm sure others in OHIO that I haven't seen so don't be offended by this very ignorant comment). Even then style is important and necessary depending upon who you play. Now, I have 3 starting catchers and 2 others chomping to play. They have to attend lessons too. Now, there are many other fielding positions that had better be training as well. I don't care what they choose to do... but I do. They all had better be working away from our practice time and I will burn them up if the do not. WE haven't even talked hitting.

I don't have a problem directly competing against the Hawk's program. It is a healthy option for many in SWO and it hasn't hurt us. Our marketing is different and I'm glad it is (not bashing). I'd like to think the SWO, Northern KY, and SE Indy players have an option in what we teach in addition to our cost structure for our teams and the fact we give every single solitary red cent back to our players. WE don't keep a dime. That is just one of a half dozen things we do that we think is our "brand of softball niche".

So Doug, keep up the marketing program for it makes competition and the gamesmanship and recruiting elevated in our area and from last I could tell very good business models "strive" off of this very scenario. Now, the strong will survive and the others can look up and watch...that is if the results are truly different and noticeable.

From the outside looking in, I'm sure the Hawks have done their investigation into NCAA violations. What group that is growing like they are would jump into something this touchy without doing there homework?

 

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My dd was 10u this past season. She was picked up as a pitcher for a VERY young 10u team. I believe only 2 were actually 10. We played a tourney where dd pitched her guts out. (brownsfan and jmeutown can back me on this one...) She was pitching against a team who could hit the cover off the ball, so they were hitting her pretty well. A lot of the hits were fieldable, but the fielders weren't handling it. She lost something like 12k's because the catcher couldn't hold the pitch or couldn't make the throw to 1st. She was fielding balls down the 1st and 3rd baselines and in the middle infield holes. I am not knocking her team. It was (I think) their 1st tourney and I think many of them were nervous and inexperienced. However, it does go to show that it doesn't matter how well a pitcher pitches... if there's no fielding behind her, it's all for naught. As the season went on, the team got better and better and they won a 9u tourney at the end of the season (without dd and the other 10yo).

I will concur with this statement. They were a very young team. I'm glad they improved through the year, got better, and won a tourney.

 

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Let me start off with saying that I have nothing what so ever to do with the Ohio Hawks organization. I have noticed that Doug and I agree on a lot of the topics that appear here on OFC. I have never met Doug, but from reading his posts and seeing what the Hawks organization has done in the last couple of years, I can see a lot of good things happening. So I guess that I am trying to say that I don't have a horse in the race and I'm not saying this to get any favors from the Hawks. As most of ya'll know, I'm an old Stingrays (DD played 12U-17U) and Classics (10U) guy.

I can see his point of view about the scholarships, even though I do not like scholarships. But hey, that's the way life is. If it works for the Hawks, then it is a mute point for the rest of us.

I do feel that a team/organization/coach will attract more girls based on their reputation more than the scholarships. I think by next year, the Ohio Hawks will not have to offer scholarships. They have been evolving their organization to become one of the "must try-out" organizations so plenty of prospects should be showing up at the try-outs.

My post is wandering a little off-topic, but organizations have to build an honest and competitive reputation in order to keep the organization going. It takes more than the first year to do that. It takes several years of showing a good history. If you have a good competitive reputation, then the Showcase doors get opened up at the 16U and 18U level. That is where the reputation starts to pay off....in the girls' favor.

JMHO guys. I've seen this over the last 7 as DD has progressed through the age brackets. This is not the "Golden Rule", but it is just something that I personally have noticed.

 

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you and me bothlol ...ohh well i guess my small little opinion (MY) opinion was some how seen as ....whats the word we use now in the "my kids need to wear a helmet to go on a swing-set,dont keep score cuz it will hurt my feelings if i dont win age....ohh yea offensive....SERIOUSLY!!

:lmao: but oh so true

 

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just stumbled onto this 12 page thread, did'nt pay much attention to it because it was about pitchers. Boy was I wrong.
To answer one question that has been ask twice : Have you ever seen a LF'er or SS or position player get pulled in the middle of an inning ? Yes twice this season 1st was by a coach for the 11u Hawks , at doom spring madness, pretty dang hard shot hit at the 2nd baseman , she failed to make the play, coach called time and chewed her pretty hard , specifically stating she failed to charge the ball. Sent her to RF , either brought in a bench player or moved the OFer in to IF. The other was the 16 Louisville Lady Sluggers in a showcase at Orland Park . Pulled both his ss and 2nd baseman for failing to back up a throw to the pitcher from the catcher with a runner on 3rd.

as far as giving financial aide to to your pitchers ? no thanks , there are enough problems with ego's and parents .

The DD was lucky enough to play with Ohio's best 14u pitcher last year (imo) , and having said that when playing at that very high level you don't get there alone with an ace, without strong D , both physically and mentally , you are going to fall short.
On this team is another kid whose workout schedule I'm very familiar with. w/o details I'll say she works as much as any pitcher I've ever been around. I just don't see the fairness of rewarding one without rewarding the other.

Can someone name any other Org offering this ? I'm unaware of any. MD

 

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just stumbled onto this 12 page thread, did'nt pay much attention to it because it was about pitchers. Boy was I wrong.
To answer one question that has been ask twice : Have you ever seen a LF'er or SS or position player get pulled in the middle of an inning ? Yes twice this season 1st was by a coach for the 10u Hawks , at doom spring madness, pretty dang hard shot hit at the 2nd baseman , she failed to make the play, coach called time and chewed her pretty hard , specifically stating she failed to charge the ball. Sent her to RF , either brought in a bench player or moved the OFer in to IF. The other was the 16 Louisville Lady Sluggers in a showcase at Orland Park . Pulled both his ss and 2nd baseman for failing to back up a throw to the pitcher from the catcher with a runner on 3rd.

as far as giving financial aide to to your pitchers ? no thanks , there are enough problems with ego's and parents .

The DD was lucky enough to play with Ohio's best 14u pitcher last year (imo) , and having said that when playing at that very high level you don't get there alone with an ace, without strong D , both physically and mentally , you are going to fall short.
On this team is another kid whose workout schedule I'm very familiar with. w/o details I'll say she works as much as any pitcher I've ever been around. I just don't see the fairness of rewarding one without rewarding the other.

Can someone name any other Org offering this ? I'm unaware of any. MD

I would love to know what you are talking about in regards to the Hawks 10U at Doom. I am a parent of that team and I do NOT remember that happening at all. So I hope you have the right team and tournament.

 

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my fault was the 11u hawks not the 10's -- I will edit my post to correct . thanks Stroh MD Was in the game VS a team from my home county.

 

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my fault was the 11u hawks not the 10's -- I will edit my post to correct . thanks Stroh MD Was in the game VS a team from my home county.

Thank You MD for clarifying. Had me nervous that I missed something.

 

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No, that would have been my team. What actually happened was that the week before at the Day Metro she began backing up on balls and being very hesitant on any hard hit ball to her. We worked on it during practice all week with all our girls and several plays before that she took a backstep and bobbled a ball. That was a hard shot at her and she totally backed up, loosing her balance and letting the ball go right past her.

With all the hours we put in and train that is not acceptable and it is not the first time I have pulled a player in the middle of an inning for being afraid of the ball or being unprepared to handle a hard shot. I am sure many saw the single play and had no idea of the history behind it but I can't manage to what others might think. Her dad and I had talked after the Day Metro and he knew and supported moving her off second base. BTW: she worked hard on her infield play and we never had any issues with backing up on grounders from that point on - she played a solid 2nd, 3rd and SS whenever we needed her.

Funny, I just had a talk with Yathzee about a similar thing - that pulling a player in the middle of an inning is considered embarassing the player, pulling a pitcher not so. What's the difference? Most coaches will ride it out through the inning hoping the player does not make another error and they can get her in the dugout to make the change. Bear in mind I am talking about A/E, mental mistakes that should not happen - not an error made with hustle and good effort. And not a single mishap, but a repeated one, or one that we have trained specifically against and the player continues to make.

For our team, backing up on a GB, not hustling, not being prepared to field your position or making the throw to the wrong base because you were not aware of the situation is not tolerated. All the girls know it, all the parents know it and we train to that level of expectation and performance. Lastly, we always give them positive re-enforcement when they get in the dugout and we always take it to the practice field to work on to give them the opportunity to get right.

I know my/our approach is not for everybody - but we returned all 10 players this season and they are working just as hard as ever for a successful 12u season.

Lastly - I did have a long talk with several of our parents that night, after that particular game about toning down our coaches intensity during the game .. they made some good points and we took it to heart and implemented it on Sunday and throught the remaining part of the season. We came out Sunday won through to the championship game with the coaches 'toned down' - the girls started rough in the champ game, playing with little A/E .. when I went down the 3rd baseline to coach during the 3rd inning several of my mom's by the fence told me to get in there and chew some tail and wake them up ... cracked me up, can't win for losing....

 

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some players respond well to that type of heat being applied , others don't . you know your team and your players ability to do so. I DON"T . I can only remember what I thought when I witnessed it. MD

 

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np .. no worries, never took offense at all...

 

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my dd was the one who took the heat. took it up a knotch. wouldn't have it any other way.

 

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No, that would have been my team. What actually happened was that the week before at the Day Metro she began backing up on balls and being very hesitant on any hard hit ball to her. We worked on it during practice all week with all our girls and several plays before that she took a backstep and bobbled a ball. That was a hard shot at her and she totally backed up, loosing her balance and letting the ball go right past her.

With all the hours we put in and train that is not acceptable and it is not the first time I have pulled a player in the middle of an inning for being afraid of the ball or being unprepared to handle a hard shot. I am sure many saw the single play and had no idea of the history behind it but I can't manage to what others might think. Her dad and I had talked after the Day Metro and he knew and supported moving her off second base. BTW: she worked hard on her infield play and we never had any issues with backing up on grounders from that point on - she played a solid 2nd, 3rd and SS whenever we needed her.

Funny, I just had a talk with Yathzee about a similar thing - that pulling a player in the middle of an inning is considered embarassing the player, pulling a pitcher not so. What's the difference? Most coaches will ride it out through the inning hoping the player does not make another error and they can get her in the dugout to make the change. Bear in mind I am talking about A/E, mental mistakes that should not happen - not an error made with hustle and good effort. And not a single mishap, but a repeated one, or one that we have trained specifically against and the player continues to make.

For our team, backing up on a GB, not hustling, not being prepared to field your position or making the throw to the wrong base because you were not aware of the situation is not tolerated. All the girls know it, all the parents know it and we train to that level of expectation and performance. Lastly, we always give them positive re-enforcement when they get in the dugout and we always take it to the practice field to work on to give them the opportunity to get right.

I know my/our approach is not for everybody - but we returned all 10 players this season and they are working just as hard as ever for a successful 12u season.

Lastly - I did have a long talk with several of our parents that night, after that particular game about toning down our coaches intensity during the game .. they made some good points and we took it to heart and implemented it on Sunday and throught the remaining part of the season. We came out Sunday won through to the championship game with the coaches 'toned down' - the girls started rough in the champ game, playing with little A/E .. when I went down the 3rd baseline to coach during the 3rd inning several of my mom's by the fence told me to get in there and chew some tail and wake them up ... cracked me up, can't win for losing....

Doug - I really like your approach - very factual and to the point with the players AND parents. This is exactly the atmosphere, or "level of expectation", that was expected of players on my DD's travel team. The expectation was that they were developing skills to put them on a path to college ball. Especially at 16u and above, this was emphasized. My DD never liked a coach "sugar coating" poor execution - just tell it like it is. Her coach always used a healthy dose of positive reinforcement, but he also left no doubt if a kid was not holding her own. No question where he stood. If a kid expects to play college ball, false praise for the sake of building self esteem will never replace honest evaluation of skills.

 

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I agree they have created more teams.

Sorry it did not work out with you and the Hawks last year. Your DD is a good player and the Hawks wish you nothing but the best. hopefully, we can move past what ever grudge you have for the Hawks and you can stop going from thread to thread trying to bash on us!

All the best,

Derek Jacobs[/QUOTE]

I dont hold a grudge.And I sure dont follow threads around lol.And if I was following your threads i would have seen this long ago.So stop stroking your ego

 

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I am just waiting for Joe to chime in a say that pitchers have a fair market value and therefore should be afforded not only scholarships but contracts as well... LOL

no offense Joe, I just couldn't resist and thought is funny.. hehe

 

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No, that would have been my team. What actually happened was that the week before at the Day Metro she began backing up on balls and being very hesitant on any hard hit ball to her. We worked on it during practice all week with all our girls and several plays before that she took a backstep and bobbled a ball. That was a hard shot at her and she totally backed up, loosing her balance and letting the ball go right past her.

With all the hours we put in and train that is not acceptable and it is not the first time I have pulled a player in the middle of an inning for being afraid of the ball or being unprepared to handle a hard shot. I am sure many saw the single play and had no idea of the history behind it but I can't manage to what others might think. Her dad and I had talked after the Day Metro and he knew and supported moving her off second base. BTW: she worked hard on her infield play and we never had any issues with backing up on grounders from that point on - she played a solid 2nd, 3rd and SS whenever we needed her.

Funny, I just had a talk with Yathzee about a similar thing - that pulling a player in the middle of an inning is considered embarassing the player, pulling a pitcher not so. What's the difference? Most coaches will ride it out through the inning hoping the player does not make another error and they can get her in the dugout to make the change. Bear in mind I am talking about A/E, mental mistakes that should not happen - not an error made with hustle and good effort. And not a single mishap, but a repeated one, or one that we have trained specifically against and the player continues to make.

For our team, backing up on a GB, not hustling, not being prepared to field your position or making the throw to the wrong base because you were not aware of the situation is not tolerated. All the girls know it, all the parents know it and we train to that level of expectation and performance. Lastly, we always give them positive re-enforcement when they get in the dugout and we always take it to the practice field to work on to give them the opportunity to get right.

I know my/our approach is not for everybody - but we returned all 10 players this season and they are working just as hard as ever for a successful 12u season.

Lastly - I did have a long talk with several of our parents that night, after that particular game about toning down our coaches intensity during the game .. they made some good points and we took it to heart and implemented it on Sunday and throught the remaining part of the season. We came out Sunday won through to the championship game with the coaches 'toned down' - the girls started rough in the champ game, playing with little A/E .. when I went down the 3rd baseline to coach during the 3rd inning several of my mom's by the fence told me to get in there and chew some tail and wake them up ... cracked me up, can't win for losing....

At 10-11 years old??? Road to college??? You will be lucky if half those girls desire to play in college by that time if that style continues until then