Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching scholarships

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sftballmom42:

First of all, your yelling has given me a headache. Secondly, yes, I do get it. Everything you said about having a pitching DD applied to our DD. We also paid for intensive agility and core training courses that ran 8 weeks and involved 110 miles a week to get her there and back. We also took her to at least monthly, and often more frequent, hitting instructions, again with that 110 miles a week. Depending on the time of year, she made weekly or bi-weekly pitching lessons with one of Ohio's best, again that 110 miles. We had her in camps. Her dad required an average of 100 hitting strokes a day and they threw at least two and more likely three times a week, excluding the pitching lessons.

No one is suggesting that pitchers and catchers don't work hard, at least those who are committed. But I will simply agree to disagree with you about whether they should receive preferential treatment regarding team fees. Pitchers and catchers often receive more attention from colleges at exposure events and in the recruiting process in general. I suspect, but do not have the stats, that pitchers and catchers receive more scholarship money on average than other position players. Should we add back to their fees because of that? Because without a good travel ball team that can get into top exposure tournaments, how much would that pitcher or catcher be seen?

We've got some players who work really, really hard on their games and spend tons of money to improve, even though they aren't pitchers or catchers. We've also had others who didn't work as much as they should. If we start comparing how hard players work and how much money they spend, and then adjust fees for that . . . well, it would be a full-time job just to address the fee structure.

Reducing a fee for a pitcher or catcher starts at some point to look like a bonus for "signing" with a particular organization and staying there. I know the Hawks don't intend it that way, but it can have that appearance.

In several of the three day coaches courses that we have attended, put on by the National Fastpitch Coaches Association and taught by top college coaches, the pitcher is referred to as "princess". One of my concerns about reducing the fee for a pitcher is that we as travel ball coaches will be encouraging princess to become even more of a diva. What does that do to team chemistry?

As I said, it is a close question whether it is better to reduce fees for a pitcher. I respect your opinion and hope you can respect mine. I also hope you won't continue yelling at your audience, as we try to keep things on a more even keel around here.

 

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To many lessons from different pitching instructors can be bad, Your DD's have to pick it up on their own or they are just going to be confused.

 

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To many lessons can be bad, Your DD's have to pick it up on their own or they are just getting confused.

Huh?

 

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Im glad someone else gets the point

No, you get MY point, welcome to the dark side Luke!! :lmao:

 

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Anyway, I think it is up to each organization to open that can of worms, I certainly wouldn't. I would not accept a pitching scholarship for my daughter, not that the Hawks would want her anyway, because of the possible complications with the NCAA. JMHO

 

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Personally I think that pitchers were put here on earth for good hitters to abuse, but I am a little biased towards the hitting side of softball, just like Pitchers parents are biased towards the pitching side.
Good hitters focus as much as good pitchers do on their skills, and then have to focus on their position defensively. It wouldent be much of a team if all you have is a pitcher or a catcher to play both def and offense, nor would it be if all you had was hitters and no pitching , Scholarships are tools to entice good pitchers to either come to or stay with a team, just call it what it is.
They can affect your NCAA eligibility, one way to get around it is for the parents of said Primadonna to do Org related fund raisers , you are actually working to reduce your dd,s fees and nothing can be said about it............as long as no money changes hands.

Tim

 

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Here is something to chew on...What if an org. held a state wide tryout for 12 of the best fastpitch players around and with that offered 0$ money to be on the team and also had all hotels paid for these 12 elite players sponsered by some high-end company(wow my mouth is watering for some reason..lol) for 12u through 18u, how many of us would jump on that wagon?

If my daughter did not want to play in the NCAA, I would jump on it!

 

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Personally I think that pitchers were put here on earth for good hitters to abuse, but I am a little biased towards the hitting side of softball, just like Pitchers parents are biased towards the pitching side.
Good hitters focus as much as good pitchers do on their skills, and then have to focus on their position defensively. It wouldent be much of a team if all you have is a pitcher or a catcher to play both def and offense, nor would it be if all you had was hitters and no pitching , Scholarships are tools to entice good pitchers to either come to or stay with a team, just call it what it is.
They can affect your NCAA eligibility, one way to get around it is for the parents of said Primadonna to do Org related fund raisers , you are actually working to reduce your dd,s fees and nothing can be said about it............as long as no money changes hands.

Tim

I agree call it what it is...but I am not brave enough to be the one to do it! lol

You! Partial to hitting...?!? No way!! And your first comment is almost right, pitchers were put on this earth for Brit to abuse, but not all hitters!!

 

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From CGS: "First of all, your yelling has given me a headache. Secondly, yes, I do get it. Everything you said about having a pitching DD applied to our DD. We also paid for intensive agility and core training courses that ran 8 weeks and involved 110 miles a week to get her there and back. We also took her to at least monthly, and often more frequent, hitting instructions, again with that 110 miles a week. Depending on the time of year, she made weekly or bi-weekly pitching lessons with one of Ohio's best, again that 110 miles. We had her in camps. Her dad required an average of 100 hitting strokes a day and they threw at least two and more likely three times a week.

No one is suggesting that pitchers and catchers don't work hard, at least those who are committed. But I will simply agree to disagree with you about whether they should receive preferential treatment regarding team fees. Pitchers and catchers often receive more attention from colleges at exposure events and in the recruiting process in general. I suspect, but do not have the stats, that pitchers and catchers receive more scholarship money on average than other position players. Should we add back to their fees because of that? Because without a good travel ball team that can get into top exposure tournaments, how much would that pitcher or catcher be seen?

We've got some players who work really, really hard on their games and spend tons of money to improve, even though they aren't pitchers or catchers. We've also had others who didn't work as much as they should. If we start comparing how hard players work and how much money they spend, and then adjust fees for that . . . well, it would be a full-time job just to address the fee structure.

Reducing a fee for a pitcher or catcher starts at some point to look like a bonus for "signing" with a particular organization and staying there. I know the Hawks don't intend it that way, but it can have that appearance.

In several of the three day coaches courses that we have attended, put on by the National Fastpitch Coaches Association and taught by top college coaches, the pitcher is referred to as "princess". One of my concerns about reducing the fee for a pitcher is that we as travel ball coaches will be encouraging princess to become even more of a diva. What does that do to team chemistry?

As I said, it is a close question whether it is better to reduce fees for a pitcher. I respect your opinion and hope you can respect mine. I also hope you won't continue yelling at your audience, as we try to keep things on a more even keel around here."
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I agree with CGS! I believe if the organization as a whole is good enough to attract the right talent, then pitchers will want to go to that organization with or without a reduced fee. DD is playing gold and there is no reduction in fee for her to be on the team and she is a pitcher. All players are paying the same fee. Another gold team has player's fees but the organization pays for travel, hotel, food and excursions for all players. But even with that, all players pay the fee. Some teams have a nice selection of "equally talented" kids that compliment each other. The reality...each position is a choice, and some are more costly than others and more time consuming. The reward is earning mound time and progressing to the top of your game. Obviously, reduced fees are an incentive, but I think the reduced fees should be applied across the board and given back to the team through quality instruction for hitters/pitchers/fielder's, etc.

 

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WELL. I think our dd should get a free ride because she is absolutely the sweetest thing.

 

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WELL. I think our dd should get a free ride because she is absolutely the sweetest thing.

the OFC forum will send you a check... you said it so we believe. I'm sure theBear is working on this for you now.

 

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Lilron:

Our daughter played on such a team (though I am NOT suggesting the team had the best 12 in Ohio) for one year, before the Ohio legislature outlawed the funding source (players had no role in the fund-raising efforts). But the point is that all the players got the same perks, including (beyond what you suggested) frequent team dinners and uniforms that included warm-ups and jerseys to wear outside of competition (such as when attending those free dinners). Can't imagine a team offering such perquisites only to pitchers and catchers.

 

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Can we please stop beating this dead horse. My head is going to explode.

 

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So why dont they offer "scholarships" to hitters who take lessons, or catchers who take lessons? That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. You take lessons to better yourself, not to get a cheaper rate. Just becasue you take lessons does not mean that you are better just means you are trying to get better.

 

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I have a question about pitching and teams. My DD is a pitcher. We practice 4 days a week and go to pitching lessons weekly. We spend a lot of money on lessons and spend a lot of time to keep her pitching up to speed. On top of that we still do team practices and batting cages on our own. I have heard of teams offering pitching and catching scholarships for players on their teams. It could be as little as $100 off the price. I have seen it even to be as much as half off. Why don?t more teams offer this?? If you have a pitcher that is your #1 or #2 and they go to lessons to improve their pitching, why not give them an incentive?

Just asking. I just wanted some input on this to see why this isn?t offered to players.

Our coach was a great pitcher at the college level and has been giving lessons for a few years now.
This year, we are paying her to give lessons to the girls on our team. I have felt it wasn't fair to the girls and parents of pitchers to have to pay for lessons when the bottom line is we want the pitchers working so it will ultimately help our team be better.
It was a win win win situation for us. Our parents are happy they are not forking out big dollars for a pitching coach, our coach is happy she is making a little extra cash, and our team will be better because all the girls are working at becoming a better pitcher.

 

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Here is something to chew on...What if an org. held a state wide tryout for 12 of the best fastpitch players around and with that offered 0$ money to be on the team and also had all hotels paid for these 12 elite players sponsered by some high-end company(wow my mouth is watering for some reason..lol) for 12u through 18u, how many of us would jump on that wagon?

I did this myself in school, It was called Legion ball and everything was covered for the rich, middle class and poor kids. It was awesome and it did wonders for me in the game of baseball. Many would jump on this if available in softball and no one would have to worry about their eligibility with the NCAA. This goes on all the time in boys sports like baseball and basketball. Run a team car wash and a bake sale for a few hours and everything is on the up and up!

 

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Whatever your conclusion on this question, you have to acknowledge that the Hawks organization has been very proactive in creating more competitive teams and giving fastpitch opportunities to young ladies.

I agree they have created more teams.[/QUOTE]

Sorry it did not work out with you and the Hawks last year. Your DD is a good player and the Hawks wish you nothing but the best. hopefully, we can move past what ever grudge you have for the Hawks and you can stop going from thread to thread trying to bash on us!

All the best,

Derek Jacobs

 

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Pitching is not as critical as the other positions? Really? A pitcher can single handedly win games. No position player has the direct ability to affect the outcome - regardless of the opposition. Teams can work around stud hitters, fielders / catchers can impact the other team strategy and aggressivness but a pitcher can mow thru a lineup and win a game with little help from the defense. Not that it happens all the time but we have pitchers that win 85% of their games on their effort alone.

The above statement sums up the real problem here in my opinion. I 100% disagree that a pitcher can "single handedly win games". If that were really the case then you could have a roster that consisted of only two players, a pitcher and a catcher. If every out was a K then maybe the statement is true.
Of course that is taking the statement literally and that may be unfair but that isn't the real point I'm trying to make. The real point is the destincttion thats being made between one player and another. Softball is a TEAM sport and the roster is typically made up of somewhere between 10 and 15 players. To single any one player out over another is never a good thing. Let me throw out a few situations just to point out what I think is flawed with this singling out of players:

1) What if every player on the team wanted to take pitching lessons? Would they all be eligable for the discount? Or would some be told to just keep working until they get good enough to warrant the reduced players fees. At the 10u - 12u age groups nobody really knows who the best pitchers are. Kids change in a new york minute.

2) Lets see what happens when the pitcher who got the reduced players fees blows 3 or 4 games in a row because shes having a bad weekend (trust me it happens) are the other players entitled to a little refund as well because princess didn't live up to the hype? Just a question, and you know that non pitching parents will be discussiing this amongst themselves.

These are just a few things that could happen to one degree or another. IMHO the statement above completely ignores the contributions of fielders who work all year long to improve their skills by attending special camps or driving to instructors. Great fielders make great pitchers, just like great offenses make average pitchers seem OK. In todays world of competitive softball a top line pitcher may strike out 5 - 10 batters (thats actually being generous if its vs. good competition) and that leaves anywhere from 11 to 16 outs for the other less important TEAMmates to make. I reject the fact that any pitcher can "single handedly win games". This sends the wrong message for a team sport. If its all about one player only then stick to golf or tennis.

I'm not saying that pitching is not a huge part of this game, or for that matter the most important. Everyone knows that. Singleing out one or two players as more important or special then the others has no place in youth team sports. Adults should know better.

Pitchers parents pay for lessons because thats what they choose to do to try and give their daughter the best opportunity to have success. Not every pitcher does and often times some very good ones just lose interest. Parents make this choice on their own, they do not deserve special treatment because they do so. The rewards are there for the player if she is worthy. Money should never be the consideration. Would one of these families not get lessons if it was not for this refund. I think not. The real reason this program exisits is to attract good pitchers away from other teams who do not offer such a discount. Just calling it what it is.

One final question. If princess is pitching in a 0-0 game in the bottom of the 7th inning and the batter hammers a drive to deep LC field and the left fielder who made a great read on the ball and caught it on the dead run and crashes into the fence just as the ball was going out to save the game, should the parents, coach or organization consider giving her a slight refund because that was a great catch? Who knows, just making the point that these kind of senarios and questions will never end. Good luck with a silly idea IMHO.

 

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Yahtzee:

Are you saying that you have it in writing from the NCAA that your reduced fee program does not affect college eligibility? Because I would be surprised if the NCAA were willing to commit that to writing. If you do have it in writing, hard to see how your organization can be criticized on that ground.

As for the whole concept . . . I'm a pitcher's mom and we dropped a TON of money into her pitching (as well as hundreds and hundreds of hours on the bucket for Ted), but I'm still not sure whether I'm comfortable with the preferential approach for pitchers. Why couldn't other players get a report from their hitting coaches that would reduce their fees? Or agility coaches?

Whatever your conclusion on this question, you have to acknowledge that the Hawks organization has been very proactive in creating more competitive teams and giving fastpitch opportunities to young ladies.

Carol,

You are wise and I have always respected your posts. You bring up a good point and I respect your opinion as someone who has been there and done that.

I can not provide any specific document to myself and/or the Hawks from the NCAA or OHSAA. It took several calls/emails to both to get a clarification on the fee reduction. What we did receive in conversations and publications we were referred to, gave us peace of mind with the scholarship/fee reduction program. Only after that did we offer it to our players.

This is not to CGS but to other posters:

The bottom line is there is no cash that changes hands and their are some stipulations set on the fee reduction for pitchers. For one they have to verify that they are attending paid instruction and they participate in fund raising for the org. I have gone in detail privately with some other organizations to help them set this up but will not here.

We also offer a similar program for any player that is with the Ohio Hawks. If a player is attending paid instruction (catching, pitching, fielding, speed and agility) and is doing fund raising through the Hawks that money can be used for instruction. Cash only changes hands from the Hawks organization to instructors. It would be similar to an organization paying coaches, their only revenue to pay coaches are fees, sponsorship and fund raising.

Most schools have pay to participate fees for all sports, but some individual fees are waived all together. This may not be something you see in the more affluent communities but we see it where I live/coach every season. My DD (if she was a pitcher) would have no more an issue with the Hawks scholarship/fee reduction than this with the NCAA.

If anyone would like more details about this for their organization, feel free to PM me. I will elaborate more there but will not beat a dead horse on this thread in the future.

DJ

 

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Derek:

Thanks for the additional information on the fee reduction program. As I said, this is a very hard question and I'm not at all sure I'm right. Especially if there are fundraising efforts contributing to the reduction in fees and the payment of instructors. Without the whole picture, I don't know where I would come down, but I stand by my posts regarding reduction in fees just for pitchers.