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What do you think the best pitching style is, snap curl and close, snap curl stay open, stay open and extend straight arm to target.
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you know this was going to come.... one that works...
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Stride and Drive. What the heck is snap curl and close.......I got a chuckle out of that.
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Stride ,drag, snap curl the hips close behind the snap, seen some hard throwers with this style.
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Not to hijack anyones thread, but maybe instead of BEST style, we go with : is one style built more for speed? or is another style harder on the arm and not good for endurance? Just a suggestion to get some of the pitching experts on here to offer up their opinions.
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I don't see how you can pitch and leave the hip open. My kid and every kid I know of, close there hips. Closing the hip gives the pitcher momentum as they come through to release. Some kids do open the hip more than others. I would think you would lose speed if you leave the hip open. As far as the snap and finish is concerned, most finish straight up or towards the left shoulder (for a righty). I believe colleges tend to prefer the staright up method....believing it's faster. I am not necessarily convinced of that. Finishing towards the left shoulder gives the ball more movement. I don't think either of these methods is harder on an arm than the other, of course, the straight up method is more natural. I am sure you will get a variety of opinions on here, especially where the finish is concerned, and like Lester said the one that "works" is fine with me.
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I have watched various college pitchers and I personally do not see them finishing straight up. To me that is the old school style of the hip coming in with the arm at the same time. If you look close at release their bodies are open as the arm moves in a slot. My dd and I have been coached by Gillis Academy instructors for 4 seasons now and have always been told it is ball then hip. For a righty even if the arm finishes to the target the body is at lets say roughly a 45 degree angle (belly button to the 3rd base dugout) so the arm is across the body. If they were to maintain this pose and straighten the shoulders to the catcher keeping the arm in the same place when opening her shoulders to the catcher her arm would not point to the catcher. If you look at fpitchdad`s avatar the pic of the pitcher has good form coming up to first quarter with her shoulders facing the catcher. Her foot is also coming off the rubber straight like a sprinter coming out of the blocks. That is a good start. I bet her "style" is close to Gillis. I would not say Hillhouse because she is not hiding the ball still at this point of her motion.
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Whatever works ! I personally like up & out with a bit of cheat (hop) long stride
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I really don't want to start this argument again~ but I will!
You posted two separate entities as far as parts of the pitch. The arm finishing straight up or across the body is one. Some say it is an absolute one way or the other, others say it is more style than substance. I am in the style camp. Many predominate male pitching coaches preach across the body as a "must have" in the pitching mechanics (Gillis and Hillhouse as an example). Most top level female pitchers actually use the straight up method. I'm sure I will be posting many clips in this thread as people tell me I'm nuts. Look at Lenski's link above and pay attention to where Jenny Finch talks about the "hello elbow".
The other part of the mechanics that you mention is the "ball before the hip".
This deals with timing and is pretty much universal. If a girl tries to have her hip and ball at the same place, same time, she will inevitably push her pitch right (right handed pitcher). I have never heard of anyone actually teaching this, but I'm sure it could happen.
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IMO, there will eventually be a communication breakdown using "catch phrases" to teach a kid to do ANY motion. "Slam the door"; "Pull the rope"; "Hammer the dog"; etc. Unless it's been visually demonstrated, how do you expect a 12 year old to know what "close your hips" means?
P.S. Great video Len.
P.S. Great video Len.
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Explode out and up, dragging. Creates lots of force towards the plate. The abrupt stop helps create torque and resistance. Snap, release and follow through. Obviously there are several variations of this. What ever works, do that.
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This subject is getting old and boring.....it goes away for a while and about every 2 months or so it pops back up again, usually by pitchers dads that have no clue.......like me......
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One thing about pitching is there is no one correct way to pitch. Finch, Fernandez, Smith, Cat all look different when they pitch. Think about this. The way a short pitcher with short legs and short arms has to create torque is going to be different than a 6`3" pitcher with long levers. Follow thru is preference, no matter what some men pitchers say. Smith stopped her hand at the hip, Finch followed through pretty much straight up, Fernandez somewhat across. There is no one way. Any one who says different is wrong. That doesn`t mean their style doesnt work, it may, but that doesn`t mean other methods don`t work. It only means they do not teach other methods. In my opinion, a great pitching coach will adjust his methods based on what the student has to work with physically. Things that are a must, arm speed torque and snap. How those are achieved is based on different factors. Once the ball is released, the follow through is personal preference, style and is dependant on the pitch thrown.
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This subject is getting old and boring.....it goes away for a while and about every 2 months or so it pops back up again, usually by pitchers dads that have no clue.......like me......
Yeah! I agree all this STUFF about ACL injuries, over hand throwing injuries, sliding, pitching can be boring and most certainly does not rank with who has the best walking taco for sure!
I am not a pitching coach however I wonder why some of my kids shoulders, elbows, lower back, quad or hamstrings hurt from pitching?
Then AFTER they see Gillis or Hillhouse they pick up more movement on the ball, their arms do not hurt, the lower back pain goes away? Why is that? Why is it they MUST throw certain pitches with a unique delivery style that seems to cause the pain on certain pitches verses others?
This is not a shot directed at anyone pitching coach however what is it they are teaching that causes less pain? What is it they are doing that other pitching coaches do not see? Can it be that simple?
I copied a link for thought and have no agenda here however I am curious!
http://www.finishfirstsports.com/Finish_First_Insider-issue78.html
Let?s take a closer look at the shoulder and the rate of injury.
According to Meyers, 38% of all upper extremity injuries are specific to the shoulder in softball. When compared to the number of other injuries, shoulder injuries are currently the number one upper extremity injuries in softball. On that note, some sports media have claimed (anecdotal) that the fast pitch motion (underhand pitch) in softball is safer on the shoulder joint (than overhand). However, the research suggests that under- and over- hand throwing both add similar stress to the shoulder. (1,2,4) Nevertheless the majority of the stress for over hand throwing is in the deceleration movement (release portion of the throw) which puts the most stress on soft tissues and connective tissues involved in external rotation of the shoulder.(4)
In underhand throwing the majority of stress is in acceleration movement (windup of windmill pitching) and internal rotation.(4) Other interesting research involved the notion that softball players may be predisposed to injury due to the decreased joint position (flexibility) of the shoulder joint during external rotation. (1) Also mentions in the same article that a certain degree of looseness within the shoulder joint to compete at the higher levels. (1) Therefore if the joint is able to move in a more optimal degree of motion the athlete would have a decreased risk of injury.
Typically the locations of shoulder injuries are both on the anterior and posterior (front and back of shoulder), and signs/symptoms include joint pain, inflammation, instability, and increasing weakness due to overuse. Softball players are known for various muscle strains of the shoulder that would involve the trapezius, biceps, pectoralis and rotator cuff.(2,3)
The Pectoralis major is the shoulder?s power generator in both over and underhand throwing.(2) The muscles located anterior (front) of shoulder are mainly involved with the stabilization of the over hand and underhand throw. (2) The serratus anterior is involved in the synchronization of the shoulder in both forms of throwing also.(2) With knowledge of the anatomy of the shoulder and of the particular muscles that are affected by shoulder injuries, we are able to create a specialized injury prevention program.
Also look at who gets hit the most with batted balls so you pitchers need to learn how to throw and the third basemen need to learn how to duck or back up...boring stuff I know!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1941294/
Game injuries from impact with a batted ball by position and injury type from 1992?1993 through 2003?2004 are displayed in Table 8. Batters and pitchers had the highest absolute number of injuries due to impact with a batted ball in games. A total of 22% of the total game injuries to pitchers occurred from batted balls, and about one third of game injuries to third basemen involved batted balls. Only 2.6% (7/241) of injuries to pitchers involved a batted ball to the head, compared with 8% for batters (24/303) and 9% for third basemen (10/96). Four of the 8 head injuries from batted balls that resulted in 10+ days of time loss involved the third baseman.
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He or she with so few words has the best post. nice job. you nailed it.
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This is the response I was looking for, last 3 years she was coached as Jenny Finch showed, with the hello elbow and closing the hips, Last year at 13 her fast ball was 58MPH, The advise from travel ball coaches ,we cahanged pitching coaches. His style teaches stay open and arm across the body. Her fast ball went down 2 MPH. This coach has some really good pitchers he works with, maybe its just not for my DD. I think I ansewered my own question.
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My dd doesn't pitch the Hillhouse way, but she does very well and she has no injury or hurting body parts. I have a pitcher on my team who goes to Hillhouse and she does very well and has no injury or hurting body parts. I agree with Punchout, there are thousands of ways to do things and no one way is right. Whatever works for your dd is the best way to do it. If someone says this is the only way to do it, it is because that is the only way THEY teach it. It doesn't mean that is the only way that works.
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Guess what. DD never went to Hillhouse, pitched for over 11 years, had some success at all levels, and never had an arm, neck or back problem.Yeah! I agree all this STUFF about ACL injuries, over hand throwing injuries, sliding, pitching can be boring and most certainly does not rank with who has the best walking taco for sure!
I am not a pitching coach however I wonder why some of my kids shoulders, elbows, lower back, quad or hamstrings hurt from pitching?
Then AFTER they see Gillis or Hillhouse they pick up more movement on the ball, their arms do not hurt, the lower back pain goes away? Why is that? Why is it they MUST throw certain pitches with a unique delivery style that seems to cause the pain on certain pitches verses others?
This is not a shot directed at anyone pitching coach however what is it they are teaching that causes less pain? What is it they are doing that other pitching coaches do not see? Can it be that simple?
I copied a link for thought and have no agenda here however I am curious!
http://www.finishfirstsports.com/Finish_First_Insider-issue78.html
Let?s take a closer look at the shoulder and the rate of injury.
According to Meyers, 38% of all upper extremity injuries are specific to the shoulder in softball. When compared to the number of other injuries, shoulder injuries are currently the number one upper extremity injuries in softball. On that note, some sports media have claimed (anecdotal) that the fast pitch motion (underhand pitch) in softball is safer on the shoulder joint (than overhand). However, the research suggests that under- and over- hand throwing both add similar stress to the shoulder. (1,2,4) Nevertheless the majority of the stress for over hand throwing is in the deceleration movement (release portion of the throw) which puts the most stress on soft tissues and connective tissues involved in external rotation of the shoulder.(4)
In underhand throwing the majority of stress is in acceleration movement (windup of windmill pitching) and internal rotation.(4) Other interesting research involved the notion that softball players may be predisposed to injury due to the decreased joint position (flexibility) of the shoulder joint during external rotation. (1) Also mentions in the same article that a certain degree of looseness within the shoulder joint to compete at the higher levels. (1) Therefore if the joint is able to move in a more optimal degree of motion the athlete would have a decreased risk of injury.
Typically the locations of shoulder injuries are both on the anterior and posterior (front and back of shoulder), and signs/symptoms include joint pain, inflammation, instability, and increasing weakness due to overuse. Softball players are known for various muscle strains of the shoulder that would involve the trapezius, biceps, pectoralis and rotator cuff.(2,3)
The Pectoralis major is the shoulder?s power generator in both over and underhand throwing.(2) The muscles located anterior (front) of shoulder are mainly involved with the stabilization of the over hand and underhand throw. (2) The serratus anterior is involved in the synchronization of the shoulder in both forms of throwing also.(2) With knowledge of the anatomy of the shoulder and of the particular muscles that are affected by shoulder injuries, we are able to create a specialized injury prevention program.
Also look at who gets hit the most with batted balls so you pitchers need to learn how to throw and the third basemen need to learn how to duck or back up...boring stuff I know!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1941294/
Game injuries from impact with a batted ball by position and injury type from 1992?1993 through 2003?2004 are displayed in Table 8. Batters and pitchers had the highest absolute number of injuries due to impact with a batted ball in games. A total of 22% of the total game injuries to pitchers occurred from batted balls, and about one third of game injuries to third basemen involved batted balls. Only 2.6% (7/241) of injuries to pitchers involved a batted ball to the head, compared with 8% for batters (24/303) and 9% for third basemen (10/96). Four of the 8 head injuries from batted balls that resulted in 10+ days of time loss involved the third baseman.
There certainly ARE pitching coaches out there who really don`t know what they are doing. If a kid looses effectiveness, or has pain doing what they are taught, it may be time to change instructors. Hillhouse is just one of many fine instructors in this state. Different strokes..........
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My point was missed....why and that is a question not a statement....when kids are hurting that after they go to people like Hillhouse or Gills they stop hurting? What another question....are they teaching that reduces the arm, shoulder, elbow leg issues that other kids have in common with a particular pitching coach?
Statement: It just seems odd that some of these kids have common problems related to certain styles or mechanics being taught and unless the parent has their head in the sand (being polite) they are not listening to their daughters complain about what is hurting them.
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