Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching Styles

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Howard - Could some injuries be related to growth related things? For instance, when my son was 13 - 14 pitching baseball, he had a problem in his elbow at arm extension where the bones contacted. He had to discontinue pitching at the time (docs orders), because the repetitive banging of the bones was causing pain, swelling and a hairline fracture. A year's worth of growing, and the problem completely disappeared. He didn't change any mechanics (actually throwing harder), but his growth created greater separation between the bones, eliminating the condition.

Possibly some of the injuries and soreness are strength related? As kids get older & start strength training and conditioning, they are better adapted and more resistant to injury?

 

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As usual, Punchout and Sammy are right on the mark with this topic!

 

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My 10u dd uses an open hip when she fires. She follows to maybe 45 degrees. This is what works for her.

I have heard that some njuries are because pitchers do not do a cool down after pitching practice. We have a cool down 80% of the time. It literally depneds on how much she throws.

 

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Howard - Could some injuries be related to growth related things? For instance, when my son was 13 - 14 pitching baseball, he had a problem in his elbow at arm extension where the bones contacted. He had to discontinue pitching at the time (docs orders), because the repetitive banging of the bones was causing pain, swelling and a hairline fracture. A year's worth of growing, and the problem completely disappeared. He didn't change any mechanics (actually throwing harder), but his growth created greater separation between the bones, eliminating the condition.

Possibly some of the injuries and soreness are strength related? As kids get older & start strength training and conditioning, they are better adapted and more resistant to injury?

I discounted that as they simply changed coaches and the pain went away. This is what confused me as to what is being taught!

I have no vested interest in Gillis or Hillhouse however is there something common to what or how they teach that makes that much difference?

Your daughter is a pitcher and if you heard her complain about pain and the doctors found no reason for the pain. Rest and give it some time and when she starts back up it is there again. Now some one recommends they try Gillis or Hillhouse and the pain goes away ...would you not wonder why?

Some of you parents amaze me that you would seek a second opinion on advice of a doctor for an operation however not for a coach that could make a difference no matter who it is.

This is why I was curious however at this point, however it is not unusual that most parents would never ask why as long as their arm does not fall off if they are getting the results. It is not a joke as I have seen it myself. The parents do not know the difference between pain and injury or technique in my opinion....come on honey you got one more inning in you just play through this pain! Here take two Advil you will be OK! You are the only pitcher we have left!

 

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My point was missed....why and that is a question not a statement....when kids are hurting that after they go to people like Hillhouse or Gills they stop hurting? What another question....are they teaching that reduces the arm, shoulder, elbow leg issues that other kids have in common with a particular pitching coach?

Statement: It just seems odd that some of these kids have common problems related to certain styles or mechanics being taught and unless the parent has their head in the sand (being polite) they are not listening to their daughters complain about what is hurting them.

I'd like to give the wheel a spin, Mr Sajak...

It's hard to say what those kids were doing in the first place to cause pain in those joints. Was it chicken winging? was it stopping the arm short? Did the girl have timing issues that caused her arm to take a unnatural path?...there are many things that individual pitchers can mess up and cause pain and or injury.

I don't know much about Gillis, but I have watched all of Hillhouses' videos. I agree with everything he teaches up to the point of the follow through going across the body to the opposite shoulder. He says its a "absolute" must have. Many instructors teach, and videos of pitchers in action show, that it is more of a style choice. Other than that it is a mirror of everything my dd has been taught by her pitching instructors, both private lessons and at clinics, and nearly every other video or motion capture I have seen (again up to the follow through).

If the kid had an instructor that was competent, and the kid worked hard at correcting her flaws, there would be nothing to talk about. If either of those two components were missing with other coaches or that kid, the process won't work. Maybe the kid's old instructor was worthless, maybe the kids just listen to Bill and Doug more, or work harder on their own after seeing them...who knows. I have seen kids that go to good pitching instructors and just don't connect with them for one reason or another. Then will go to another instructor and see immediate results. These are young women we are dealing with, If someone has figured them out as to how they think, please PM me...

I doubt seriously that a kid with perfect mechanics that finishes with her arm up as opposed to across her body will ever have the injuries mentioned here. I would suspect that those injuries are a function of another, and possibly multiple, flaws in her mechanics.

...And I agree with you also in that if your dd is hurting somewhere, stop what you are doing, get her to heal, then figure out what was wrong to cause the injury and fix it.

 

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Our family (my kids) have been very fortunate to not have any mechanics related injuries. One thing I cannot stress enough is that if a kid EVER complains about pain, it MUST be taken VERY seriously. As a parent, I personally counted my son's pitches. When he reached what I thought was enough, the coach had 1 batter to relieve him. Fortunately, I never had to inform the coach that my son was done for the day - take him out NOW. Funny thing is, most dads are the exact opposite - don't want to hurt kids chance of getting to the bigs...

DD has learned a lot about being balanced strength-wise; important to train and strengthen BOTH sides, left and right - regardless of which side you throw with. The importance of "just being in great physical shape" going into the college level is SO important - just as important as using good mechanics.

 

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Sammy - How do you train and strengthen both sides?

 

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Balance. My dd was reading this post and she is very althletic. So she took the balance test on Wi that tests both sides of your body. She did not do well. We think it is because she pitches. Her and my wife use it for conditioning. Anyone else take this test ?

 

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My DD took the balance test and it was neer dead in the center in the stupid x....lol. My wife and I were horrible.....and yes she rubbed it in. I think it comes from all the personal training she does. One of the main things that are focused on in her personal training is her posture and balance. Maybe if I lost my gut, I may be able to balance better........I hate that dang wii....lol

 

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I don't know much about Gillis, but I have watched all of Hillhouses' videos. I agree with everything he teaches up to the point of the follow through going across the body to the opposite shoulder. He says its a "absolute" must have. Many instructors teach, and videos of pitchers in action show, that it is more of a style choice. Other than that it is a mirror of everything my dd has been taught by her pitching instructors, both private lessons and at clinics, and nearly every other video or motion capture I have seen (again up to the follow through).

Thunder.. What Hillhouse advocates (and Gillis) is a snap or whip of the elbow. This is the 'absolute'. This does not and cannot happen when you bend your elbow straight up. And please go back to Youtube, watch some video of your favorite pitchers and then rewatch it. Finch snaps her elbow across (as Hillhouse teaches) then she pulls it back and brings it straight up. In her pitch, she does not do this. Regardless of what she "teaches" in her camps. Go look, watch it in slow motion and you'll see for yourself. Michele Smith shows her elbow across her body on the mere box covers of her DVD's!!! Osterman does it too. They all do it. This is because our bodies are designed to work diagonal for power, not straight. The examples Bill uses of how to serve a tennis ball, how to throw a ball overhand, how boxers get power, etc. are all done across their bodies with the finish. And you will see this on your Youtube videos of Finch, etc. This says nothing about a pitcher's inability to put backspin on a riseball if they don't let their body work naturally.

The advocating of getting the hand to the opposite shoulder is done to show it's a natural finish and to give people a point of reference. They do not have to finish with hand to shoulder, as long as the elbow snaps. This cannot and does not happen with the "hello elbow" thing. Like you I was skeptical too. Then I took the challenge laid out to me and tried it myself. To throw harder, my arm snapped across. So does everyone else's. JMHO.

 

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What Hillhouse advocates (and Gillis) is a snap or whip of the elbow.


My DD was just with Bill this past Friday and on more than one occasion he told my DD to snap her elbow more. When she does do it correctly, you can tell a HUGE difference in her speed. When she finishes with her hand above her right shoulder (she is right handed), there is not as much of a whipping action creating more speed.
This thread was created by pitching "style" not mechanics. Style is whatever works for your DD. There is NO substitue for proper mechanics.

 

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Thunder.. What Hillhouse advocates (and Gillis) is a snap or whip of the elbow. This is the 'absolute'. This does not and cannot happen when you bend your elbow straight up. And please go back to Youtube, watch some video of your favorite pitchers and then re-watch it. Finch snaps her elbow across (as Hillhouse teaches) then she pulls it back and brings it straight up. In her pitch, she does not do this. Regardless of what she "teaches" in her camps. Go look, watch it in slow motion and you'll see for yourself. Michele Smith shows her elbow across her body on the mere box covers of her DVD's!!! Osterman does it too. They all do it. This is because our bodies are designed to work diagonal for power, not straight. The examples Bill uses of how to serve a tennis ball, how to throw a ball overhand, how boxers get power, etc. are all done across their bodies with the finish. And you will see this on your Youtube videos of Finch, etc. This says nothing about a pitcher's inability to put backspin on a riseball if they don't let their body work naturally.

The advocating of getting the hand to the opposite shoulder is done to show it's a natural finish and to give people a point of reference. They do not have to finish with hand to shoulder, as long as the elbow snaps. This cannot and does not happen with the "hello elbow" thing. Like you I was skeptical too. Then I took the challenge laid out to me and tried it myself. To throw harder, my arm snapped across. So does everyone else's. JMHO.

I have watched several Finch, Osterman, Smith, etc videos. I don't see how anyone could spin their arm at over 70 MPH in one direction, stop, back up and pull the arm straight up like you say that Finch does. If you are looking to cause an injury, go ahead and tell a kid to try that pitching style. As bouldersdad would say, That dog don't hunt. I think what I need to re-watch is the Hillhouse video where he says that it is a "absolute" that you finish across the body to the opposite shoulder. I am nearly positive that is close to if not actually a direct quote.

I really need to start bookmarking these clips for posting them every couple months. I spend too much time looking them up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_de3HJvO-N8&feature=PlayList&p=5987F5E4025A0396&index=0&playnext=1
-motion capture at 5:55 shows the arm finishing high in the right side of the body.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/throwing/windmill?p=2&w=4&c=4&n=0&m=24&s=0&y=1&z=9&l=0
3 pitchers, Osterman (throwing a curve ball, don't get excited that her hand is creeping to to the right...lol) Finch, most definitely not finishing opposite shoulder. Yukiki Ueno, Unorthodox delivery, almost looks like a chicken wing, yet the hand does not finish across the body.

Looks to me like there are many ways to finish the pitch. Speaks more to style than to an absolute rule according to physics and kinesiology. You can snap the wrist and elbow underhand and finish with the hand up instead of across the body. I will start looking for videos of boxers throwing uppercuts to prove it.

Found it... Bill Hillhouse preaching the across the body finish, really a good video though. This is part 1 of 3. The section about across the body comes in around 6:00 the video is 20:00 long.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/softball/videos/124/

 

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I have came to the conclusion, correct me if I'm wrong, that what is explained in this link is what matters.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/1348-internal-rotation.html

After this whatever follow through is natural should occur. The ball is already gone. The videos in the post above would agree with this. Finch is definately rotating her forearm inward at release and then the arm just goes wherever.

This is kind of the way Kempf explains it in her video. I think its a lot of Hillhouse is trying to explain too. What he seems to be trying to say on his tape is that if you have a girl that does the whole straight arm, hand behind ball, nothing but wrist snap, follow through and touch your throwing shoulder (which is commonly taught around my area, and churns out some pretty good pitchers), then one way to maybe break this habit is to have them touch their opposite shoulder. It seemed to me to be more of a drill suggestion to correct a problem.

 

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Thunder.. What Hillhouse advocates (and Gillis) is a snap or whip of the elbow. This is the 'absolute'. This does not and cannot happen when you bend your elbow straight up. And please go back to Youtube, watch some video of your favorite pitchers and then rewatch it. Finch snaps her elbow across (as Hillhouse teaches) then she pulls it back and brings it straight up. In her pitch, she does not do this. Regardless of what she "teaches" in her camps. Go look, watch it in slow motion and you'll see for yourself. Michele Smith shows her elbow across her body on the mere box covers of her DVD's!!! Osterman does it too. They all do it. This is because our bodies are designed to work diagonal for power, not straight. The examples Bill uses of how to serve a tennis ball, how to throw a ball overhand, how boxers get power, etc. are all done across their bodies with the finish. And you will see this on your Youtube videos of Finch, etc. This says nothing about a pitcher's inability to put backspin on a riseball if they don't let their body work naturally.

The advocating of getting the hand to the opposite shoulder is done to show it's a natural finish and to give people a point of reference. They do not have to finish with hand to shoulder, as long as the elbow snaps. This cannot and does not happen with the "hello elbow" thing. Like you I was skeptical too. Then I took the challenge laid out to me and tried it myself. To throw harder, my arm snapped across. So does everyone else's. JMHO.

Oh Yeah...........I agree 100%......watch her pitch not instruct........and do it yourself and you to will see the light, come on over to the bright side

 

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I have came to the conclusion, correct me if I'm wrong, that what is explained in this link is what matters.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/1348-internal-rotation.html

After this whatever follow through is natural should occur. The ball is already gone. The videos in the post above would agree with this. Finch is definately rotating her forearm inward at release and then the arm just goes wherever.

This is kind of the way Kempf explains it in her video. I think its a lot of Hillhouse is trying to explain too. What he seems to be trying to say on his tape is that if you have a girl that does the whole straight arm, hand behind ball, nothing but wrist snap, follow through and touch your throwing shoulder (which is commonly taught around my area, and churns out some pretty good pitchers), then one way to maybe break this habit is to have them touch their opposite shoulder. It seemed to me to be more of a drill suggestion to correct a problem.

hit it on the nose

 

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wow Steve, That Finch video you need to watch some more...2:39 to 2:43 and many other times as well.....we are going to have to talk man....lol

 

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oh had to post again because last post was 666

 

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Sometimes people teach things different than what they actually do. Which is the case in the video link provided by Len. Watching that video and then watching Finch`s pitching models on the RVP software. They are totally different.

 

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wow Steve, That Finch video you need to watch some more...2:39 to 2:43 and many other times as well.....we are going to have to talk man....lol

If her arm comes up and across to the opposite shoulder as Hillhouse describes in his video, I will eat my keyboard.

I understand the point he is attempting to make. Just as in how Finch describes the "hello elbow" but differs slightly, Hillhouse describes across to the oposite shoulder, but many dominate pitchers don't do that exacly either. That is why I make the contention that it is a style choice of where your hand ends up after the ball is released, just so long as it allows for natural deceleration along the path of the pitch without causing undue stress on the arm.

 

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Thunder.. you are missing the point here. You keep focusing on "the hand going to the opposite shoulder' statement rather than the REASON for it to go there. It goes there so the elbow can snap. or whip. Or both. Bill is the first one to tell you in lessons/instruction that he does not care if the hand finishes to the shoulder as long as the arm whips and elbow snaps. In his video, that was the point. You are focusing on how he was getting someone used to that feel (by touching opposite shoulder) instead of the meaning behind it. Watching the Youtube videos shows all the Olympic pitcher's elbows snapping, which is the ENTIRE point. It does not and cannot snap when it comes straight up. Not to mention the other issues that go along with that (pitching around the hips, in ability to have ball spin straight, etc.).