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We get it. You don't like Hillhouse.
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I have seen 8U's throw 38-42. 10U's 48-52. Radar gun mileage will vary (no matter the manufactuer). Compensating for poor gun calibration, interference, and flourescent lighting (indoors) can be a challenge. I know we have come to count on a few facts gained from experience. With the proper techniques, growth and maturity level, it still takes 2,000 pitches to gain 1-2 mph. That has been our experience. The older and more experienced the more work and practice it takes to gain 1-2 mph hour. Closer to 3,000 or more pitches. Seems to progess slower with age even with the most determined athletes. Girls change quite significantly after 12 too!
Bottom line: If you throw enough pitches CORRECTLY and get the muscle memory and fine tune at a young age, I believe anything is possible.
Bottom line: If you throw enough pitches CORRECTLY and get the muscle memory and fine tune at a young age, I believe anything is possible.
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I have read through this thread and I could not find anywhere where Thunder's Dad said anything about not liking Hillhouse, all he said was when someone preaches absolutes there is a problem. I also feel like he does, I can not find any videos of the great pitchers that we all agree are the best, Finch, Abbott, Osterman, Michele Smith, Lisa Fernandez that finish across their body. When you want to be the best you emulate the best, if I wanted to be a great hitter you would start with films of Crystal Bustos, if I wanted to be a great pitcher I would start with the names above. I must admit that I get angry when teachers/friends of mine get slammed on this forum for not teaching a "style" that is yet to be proven on the big stage, if you get my drift.
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Eric, respectfully I'm going to have to disagree with the comment that Hillhouse's "style" has yet to be proven on the big stage as Hillhouse/Gillis have pitched at the highest level of men's fastpitch in the world. Some would argue that the men are the best pitcher's in the world as well. That is neither here nor there.
Where did I attack or make fun of anyone on this forum? I'm tired of the straw man arguments, misleading statements, and taking things out of context.
Bill encourages people to compare video of the best in the world, including all of the names above. I have yet to see one single instance of game footage of any of the mentioned names finish by pointing their elbow at the catcher.
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I have no intention of fanning the flames anymore. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say, "You disagree with Bill, we get it."
Nobody but you mentioned your DD's instructor. I'm glad you are happy with her and trust her. I trust that the mechanics that I have learned from Bill Hillhouse, Doug Gillis, and others are also bio-mechanically sound.
Nobody but you mentioned your DD's instructor. I'm glad you are happy with her and trust her. I trust that the mechanics that I have learned from Bill Hillhouse, Doug Gillis, and others are also bio-mechanically sound.
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It would be more accurate to say that I agree with Jodi
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The pot is spinning good now!
cshilt- the top two images you posted are the pitchers position at the snap. The hips are open and they are snapping toward the target. That is hardly a groundbreaking epiphany, and I have never seen or heard of any pitching coach not teaching to snap toward the target. All except Michelle Smith at the bottom left and possibly Fernandez at the bottom right, they are throwing curveballs, and we have already discussed Hillhouses' negative feelings about those completely ineffective pitches.
Hillhouse states that you MUST finish with your hand across the body to the opposite shoulder, not "it's OK if you finish with your fingers just above the belly button", or with your hand along the midline of your body. He leaves no wiggle room on any of his statements, which is what I have contested with my posts. The pictures that you posted support neither the straight up, nor the across the body style because they are taken at the snap of the ball and not at the finish of the pitch. I'm not saying finishing across the body is wrong either. If it works for your dd, phenomenal! Just making the statement that it is a style choice as opposed to an absolute as to where the hand finishes.
I also don't know what pitch Lisa Fernandez is throwing in the big picture, but that is a huge chicken wing and most pitching coaches cringe when they see that. (Probably one of the biggest injury causing mechanical flaws in pitching. My opinion, no facts/figures on this one.) It looks like she is trying to touch her nose with her tounge and punch the snot out of her glove!
Osterman at the FINISH of the pitch
http://www.cal-aces.com/NPF/Cat%20Osterman/cat_osterman_bio.htm
Angela Tincher at the FINISH of the pitch. Big time straight up. Maybe she should hit a Hillhouse clinic so she can make it to the next level?
http://angelatincher.blogspot.com
http://flickr.com/photos/jracioppi09/3854892986/
This is Alicia Hollowell with a true Hillhouse style finish. I am nothing if not fair! Again, not wrong, just different.
http://www.famousmormons.net/olympians2.html
It is really hard to find pictures of the pitchers at the finish of the pitch. It is even harder to find a picture of a top level pitcher, at the finish of the pitch, throwing a fastball. I just spent the last hour and a half looking at google images. Images did not upload for some reason, I posted links to the sites they were from, hopefully not too confusing, you will need to scroll down on a couple of them.
cshilt- the top two images you posted are the pitchers position at the snap. The hips are open and they are snapping toward the target. That is hardly a groundbreaking epiphany, and I have never seen or heard of any pitching coach not teaching to snap toward the target. All except Michelle Smith at the bottom left and possibly Fernandez at the bottom right, they are throwing curveballs, and we have already discussed Hillhouses' negative feelings about those completely ineffective pitches.
Hillhouse states that you MUST finish with your hand across the body to the opposite shoulder, not "it's OK if you finish with your fingers just above the belly button", or with your hand along the midline of your body. He leaves no wiggle room on any of his statements, which is what I have contested with my posts. The pictures that you posted support neither the straight up, nor the across the body style because they are taken at the snap of the ball and not at the finish of the pitch. I'm not saying finishing across the body is wrong either. If it works for your dd, phenomenal! Just making the statement that it is a style choice as opposed to an absolute as to where the hand finishes.
I also don't know what pitch Lisa Fernandez is throwing in the big picture, but that is a huge chicken wing and most pitching coaches cringe when they see that. (Probably one of the biggest injury causing mechanical flaws in pitching. My opinion, no facts/figures on this one.) It looks like she is trying to touch her nose with her tounge and punch the snot out of her glove!
Osterman at the FINISH of the pitch
http://www.cal-aces.com/NPF/Cat%20Osterman/cat_osterman_bio.htm
Angela Tincher at the FINISH of the pitch. Big time straight up. Maybe she should hit a Hillhouse clinic so she can make it to the next level?
http://angelatincher.blogspot.com
http://flickr.com/photos/jracioppi09/3854892986/
This is Alicia Hollowell with a true Hillhouse style finish. I am nothing if not fair! Again, not wrong, just different.
http://www.famousmormons.net/olympians2.html
It is really hard to find pictures of the pitchers at the finish of the pitch. It is even harder to find a picture of a top level pitcher, at the finish of the pitch, throwing a fastball. I just spent the last hour and a half looking at google images. Images did not upload for some reason, I posted links to the sites they were from, hopefully not too confusing, you will need to scroll down on a couple of them.
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Images did not upload, I am really not happy now
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I know Jennie Finch does not throw across her body. I've been to more than one of her camps and watched many of her exhibitions. All of her pitches end with the elbow pointing to the target in varying degrees....depending on the pitch.
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Where can you get a good and accurate radar gun at? Saw one at Dunhams a few months ago for around $130, which Im not sure if it is a good brand or price.
Any suggestions on brands and where abouts?
Thanks in advance!
Any suggestions on brands and where abouts?
Thanks in advance!
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I'll help a brother out...
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High five to Knights.... thanks!
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The pot is spinning good now!
cshilt- the top two images you posted are the pitchers position at the snap. The hips are open and they are snapping toward the target. That is hardly a groundbreaking epiphany, and I have never seen or heard of any pitching coach not teaching to snap toward the target. All except Michelle Smith at the bottom left and possibly Fernandez at the bottom right, they are throwing curveballs, and we have already discussed Hillhouses' negative feelings about those completely ineffective pitches.
Hillhouse states that you MUST finish with your hand across the body to the opposite shoulder, not "it's OK if you finish with your fingers just above the belly button", or with your hand along the midline of your body. He leaves no wiggle room on any of his statements, which is what I have contested with my posts. The pictures that you posted support neither the straight up, nor the across the body style because they are taken at the snap of the ball and not at the finish of the pitch. I'm not saying finishing across the body is wrong either. If it works for your dd, phenomenal! Just making the statement that it is a style choice as opposed to an absolute as to where the hand finishes.
I also don't know what pitch Lisa Fernandez is throwing in the big picture, but that is a huge chicken wing and most pitching coaches cringe when they see that. (Probably one of the biggest injury causing mechanical flaws in pitching. My opinion, no facts/figures on this one.) It looks like she is trying to touch her nose with her tounge and punch the snot out of her glove!
It is really hard to find pictures of the pitchers at the finish of the pitch. It is even harder to find a picture of a top level pitcher, at the finish of the pitch, throwing a fastball. I just spent the last hour and a half looking at google images. Images did not upload for some reason, I posted links to the sites they were from, hopefully not too confusing, you will need to scroll down on a couple of them.
If I had to take a guess, Fernandez is throwing a drop curve. To me, all the pictures are either showing the snap of the rise or drop/drop curve.
When a pitcher in baseball pitches the ball, they finish across their body. The reason is because they throw what is called "three quarters". Their arm swing is not a "12 to 6" motion like a fastpitch pitcher so an over hand thrower comes across their body due to the natural plane of the arm swing.
A fastpitch pitcher's windmill must be "12 to 6" per the rules. So, the natural plane would suggest that an elbow finish to the target (for a fastball) would be the natural way the arm wants to go. For a windmill pitcher, to finish across the body would suggest that the hips close first before the ball gets to the hip. A pitcher that finishes elbow to target suggests that the ball comes before the hips close.
A pitcher that closes their hips before releasing the ball actually strains/stretches the front of their shoulder joint and muscles a bit to keep their windmill on plane (their hips begin to close during the downswing of the windmill). A pitcher that gets the ball in front of the hip before the hips close, then comes across their body and finishes high strains/stretches the back of their shoulder joint and muscles. So, in essence, finishing across the body is not an absolute, and it is not the "healthiest" option for the shoulder. It is just not what the shoulder joint naturally wants to do. If the hips close before the release of the ball, the arm naturally wants to finish slightly away from the body, causing the pitch to finish WAY off the plate.
In all honesty, I don't know Hillhouse, Gillis, whoever. I do not have a pitcher (I have a catcher and an infielder) in my house and I've never been to their clinics. However, I will say that (in my opinion) who's right are the coaches/trainers that teach ball before hip, stay open until the release of the ball, and finish elbow to target. That is the healthiest option for the shoulder. The only trainer I've personally been around that teaches this method is Chip Gregg at NKU....I can't speak for others.
Len
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They are all, to some degree, finishing on a diagonal plane. You are over emphasizing and distorting what Bill teaches regarding the finish. The point he makes is that for maximum efficiency the hips and shoulders should not be square to the target and the arm should finish on a diagonal plane, not straight up from the hip.
All of the other "examples" that were posted yesterday of the bowler and the kick boxer use rotational and diagonal movements. Was the bowler standing straight up and finish with his arm outside his body? Did the kick boxer not rotate his hips and finish inside his body?
You seem to deride Bill a lot for not teaching a curveball, Bill doesn't necessarily have a problem with a curveball. He just doesn't like pitches that only move only on a horizontal plane. His point is that a pitch should break in or out & up or down. Many teach that you have to step outside of the body to throw the curve or screwball. The screwball that Stacy Nelson threw all through the college world series served her well, except in the finals. It also wasn't nearly as effective when she played on the National team last year.
I think that Tincher probably is the best example of the mechanics that Hillhouse teaches and she is mostly a riseball/dropball pitcher. She throws a curve, but I'd just about guarantee that she doesn't change her mechanics to throw it.
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Those pitchers look to me like they have just released a curve ball. Sure the hand will be crossing over on that pitch. Why? because they are not crossing up and over. The high elbow on Fernandez happened normally when she threw one of her many variations of a change up.Eric, respectfully I'm going to have to disagree with the comment that Hillhouse's "style" has yet to be proven on the big stage as Hillhouse/Gillis have pitched at the highest level of men's fastpitch in the world. Some would argue that the men are the best pitcher's in the world as well. That is neither here nor there.
Where did I attack or make fun of anyone on this forum? I'm tired of the straw man arguments, misleading statements, and taking things out of context.
Bill encourages people to compare video of the best in the world, including all of the names above. I have yet to see one single instance of game footage of any of the mentioned names finish by pointing their elbow at the catcher.
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Exactly my point.Wow punch, Cat throws a lot of curve ball in that Vid too, according to Hillhouse, that is not good. You can't throw a pitch that stays on the same plane. Her follow through is not very good either. Just think how good cat could have been had she not had that curve and her follow through was the "Hillhouse Way".....Cat would have been a lot better......
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Again we all have to remember these are the best in the world.
they may teach a younger girl the most effective cookie cutter version at a camp, but that may not be the way they actually pitch.
After a million or so pitches they have developed certain releases to spin it up there every way imaginable.
you would not see to many teenagers doing what they do
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Now that is a cheap shot. Michelle Smith Finch, Fernandez and Finch obviously do not follow Bills methods and they are "THE BEST EVER." That means without using Bills methods they have somehow endured flawed techniques???
Hey, Bills methods "ALSO" work, but again, they are not the only way to stay healthy and get batters out. To think otherwise is just insaine.
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