proper umpiring ruling or not

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here is the situation. girl on first and second with one out. medium height fly ball hit toward shortstop. umpire calls infield fly twice. our runners for back to their bases, wind blows ball about 5 feet into outfield. As players converge on ball and ball is in its downward path and umpire begins yelling NO INFIELD FLY, NO INFIELD FLY. Our runners are stuck at their base because umpire called infield fly.

Is this proper call

 

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no

That is one bad umpire..........I do not even care what the proper call was. You can not change your calls in mid play. That is like saying a pitch is a ball and then as the catcher throws it back to the pitcher yelling STRIKE THREE.........it is too late at that point.

 

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Absolutely poor umpiring! The umpire has just jeopardized the runner's ability to advance with an incorrect call. I'll be interested to see what Bretman shows as the remedy...

 

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I would say the remedy.. if overruled and correct by his partner ( which should have been done actually ) would be : Batter out, runners stay on first and second base respectfully. "Two out, next batter please"

 

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Once the "Infield Fly" was exclaimed the umpire has to go with it and take his lumps.

 

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I would say that Bret will tell you that no umpire will overrule another one out of just doing it. The initial ump may ask the other then they will decide....That being said, even though an infield fly was called they still have to catch the ball or your runners dont have to tag. So its runners advance at their own risk. The runners could have advanced either way... if you so choose as a coach, they may have been confused and yes bad call, you have to stick with original especially in mid play but your runners by rule arent stuck on those bases....

 

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Any fair fly ball that could have been caught by an infielder with ordinary effort is covered by the rule regardless of where the ball is caught. The ball need not be caught by an infielder, nor must it be caught in the infield. For example, if an infielder retreats to the outfield in an effort to catch a fly ball with ordinary effort, the infield Fly Rule may be invoked, even if an outfielder ultimately caught the ball, and even if no infielder attempted to make a play on the ball. Similarly, a fly ball within the infield that could have been caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, but is caught by an outfielder, would also be covered by the rule. (Hope this helps!)

 

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Umpires after discussion, can change the call to what is "proper and fair". By creating an "unfair" situation, they should have overuled / or ruled on the situation.

Yes, of course the runners can go forth if ball is not caught.... he didn't say that happened.... so when "changing" to what was the proper thing to do, as an umpire who created an unfair advantage, I would go Batter out and runners return to their bases.

Yes, in a NORMAL situation, the ball is live.. but the umpire made the situation "UNFAIR advantage to one team" and "Disadvantage to another" and should do the proper thing.

I have no idea why people think umpires will not talk and overrule each other if it is the proper thing to do. I guess there must be too many UMPIRES who don't. I don't know any personally.

But, in this case proof positve is the change in a call that was loud enough for the fans to hear it. He created an "unfair situation".. good or bad to either party .. the umpires should go with the original call and make the situation "fair" according to rulebook standards.

In USSSA, Rule 10.. the God Rule ( Umpire Section ) it gives the umpire the right to make anything fair according to his standards of what is "fair".

 

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Had this happen Sunday-bases loaded, 0 outs. Shallow pop hit towards SS, she moves about one inch, misses ball which literally hit here in the foot. Umpire first says no infield fly because ball "didn't get high enough", then after actually reading the rule(because his initial interpretation was it was not a pop-up), that it was "too hard for the girls to catch.." Again, she basically never moved, she just misjudged the ball, WHICH HIT HER. I am willing to bet the most butchered calls are change-ups and infield fly.

 

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Infield fly- Can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on 1st and 2nd or all 3 bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. The infield fly rule says any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purpose of this rule.The rule does preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. At the end of the rule it states that if an infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

IN the end batter should be out and runners are where they are at the end of the live ball play. Sounded like right call in beginning so your not out anything from where you should have been by rule.

 

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Quaker I was assuming (which I know what they say) that the ball was missed only becasue of the rest of the story being frustrated the runners didnt advance. However question is was ball caught or dropped and what did ump do with the batter?

 

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What the umpire did was go from "infield fly rule" to " No infield fly rule" which confused the runners. For if it was dropped or not caught... with the "No INFIELD FLY RULE" there are force outs as the runners are FORCED to advance on a non-caught ball... In the original call ( INFIELD FLY RULE ) ... IF THE BALL IS NOT CAUGHT.. RUNNERS HAVE A CHOICE .. to stay or go.

The difference .. because of the change of the call ... is FORCED versus NOT FORCED in the decision making process of the runner.

That makes an unfair advantage to the defense and unfair disadvantage to the offense.

 

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Quaker I was assuming (which I know what they say) that the ball was missed only becasue of the rest of the story being frustrated the runners didnt advance. However question is was ball caught or dropped and what did ump do with the batter?

Original poster of the question.. didn't say what happened. But, if the umpire changed the call in mid-flight to NO INFIELD FLY... then the batter is safe at first if ball was not caught or the runner was not put out at first.

I'm just saying it should have never been allowed to stand based on giving one team an advantage over another.. because in one situation if the ball is NOT caught... the RUNNERS are force to leave the bag. With the other ( INFIELD FLY ) the runners are not forced to go even if the ball is not caught.

 

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There's nothing that says the umpires can't change a call. But the prefered method for changing a call is NOT to do it in the middle of the play! That's just going to cause confusion and make yourself a big mess to deal with when the play's over.

The best prevention for stuff like this is to make darn sure it really is an infield fly before you call it! Sounds like this umpire must have rushed his call. You really need to wait until the ball is on the way down before making your decision, so that you can accurately judge if a fielder will be positioned to make a "routine" catch- especially on a windy day. Wind conditions may be taken into account when determining the "routine-ness" of the catch.

While I will say that the umpire botched the mechanics of making and announcing an infield fly call, I couldn't really comment on whether or not the infield fly should or should not have been called in the first place. That requires the judgment of actually seeing the play. From the written description, it sounds like a "medium height fly ball toward the shortstop" certainly fits the bill of a potential infield fly.

Next you have "players converging on the ball as it is on a downward path". Could any of those players have routinely caught the ball? Were they infielders? Outfielders? How far into the outfield is "five feet into the outfield" when there is no defined line of exactly where the infield ends and the outfield begins? You'd really need to know some of those details to even begin to determine if an infield fly was the right call here.

But this guy did call...then un-call it. So what do you do now?

The rules permit the plate umpire to rectify any situation where an umpire's delayed or reversed call puts either team in jeopardy. There's no set-in-stone fix. The fix is whatever the umpire's judge should be done to negate the effects of the reversed call. That might involve placing runners or enforcing outs or any combination of those. The goal is the set things as closely as possible to where they would have been had the call not been reversed.

Some of this will depend on how the players reacted to the call. Hearing the infield fly rule called is likely to make runners stay on their bases. Un-calling it puts them all in jeopardy of being forced out at the next base. And even without the infield fly call, they probably wouldn't be advancing too far with a shallow fly ball and players converging for the catch. Add to the confusion that hearing the call would lead the defense to think there were no force outs available and that could very well affect which play they try to make after fielding the ball.

So...you have to take all that information, considering where the ball was, how the runners reacted, how the defense reacted and try to figure out what would have been the most likely outcome if the correct call had been made in the first place. Then place the runners or enforce any outs needed to simulate that outcome.

Examples of things that the umpires could decide to do after taking all that into consideration:

- Rule that the infield fly was the proper call. Batter out, runners remain at first and second.

- Rule that there should not have been an infield fly. Place batter on first base. Advance other runners one base.

- Or maybe even some combination of the two or something completely different!

No matter what you come up with, one coach or the other is probably not going to like it. A whole lot of confusion that could have all been avoided by following perhaps the most basic mechanics of umpiring- don't rush your calls and don't call something unless you're certain of it!

 

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Just be glad the play didn't turn out to be a double play .. as both runners stayed on the base .... and then was FORCED out. because they didn't run !!!!

All heck breaking loose would closely describe the situation between coaches and parents if that was to occur... :lmao:

 

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All heck often breaks loose on infield flies even when the umpires call it the right way!

 

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All heck often breaks loose on infield flies even when the umpires call it the right way!

Heard that, and you are correct quaker in the force out situation, I guess I must have been on the confused side.

 

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Infield fly- Can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on 1st and 2nd or all 3 bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. The infield fly rule says any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purpose of this rule.The rule does preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. At the end of the rule it states that if an infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

IN the end batter should be out and runners are where they are at the end of the live ball play. Sounded like right call in beginning so your not out anything from where you should have been by rule.

Did you not understand what he was asking? :lmao:

 

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Did you not understand what he was asking? :lmao:

What who was asking?

 

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Infield fly- Can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when runners are on 1st and 2nd or all 3 bases are occupied and before there are two outs in the inning. The infield fly rule says any defensive player positioned in the infield at the time of the pitch shall be considered an infielder for the purpose of this rule.The rule does preclude outfielders from being permitted to make the catch. At the end of the rule it states that if an infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

IN the end batter should be out and runners are where they are at the end of the live ball play. Sounded like right call in beginning so your not out anything from where you should have been by rule.

Respectfully, no. an outfielder CAN catch what is ruled to be an infield fly. It simply must be determined that an infielder COULD have caught the ball with ordinary effort.