Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Proper pitching mechanics?

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That's great your dd is giving lessons in the Hillhouse style, there needs to be more instructors offering that style for those who use it. No offense at all, but I probably wouldn't take my dd to your dd for lessons because they don't have the same pitching style. They have similar body issues but not similar pitching styles and I look for both in an instructor.

Guys can ABSOLUTELY coach and teach girls, some of the best coaches I've ever met were guys. My youngest dd is on a team with 3 male coaches and they are doing a great job.

 

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OK, we are cool ... I still think the prefer to pitch like a woman phrase was a little over the top, but ...

FYI, as my DD teaches new pitchers, she teaches her preferred style of course. As more established pitchers come to her, she works with them and their style. She will show them the way she does things and what she prefers, but she does not insist on change unless she thinks it's significantly holding them back. Am pretty sure the arm finish is not a "must-have" for her in this situation, but I will ask her next time I talk to her.

 

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Julie ... I usually agree with you on most things, but that's a BS thing to say ("I prefer my pitchers to pitch like women") ... Hillhouse always gets **** cause he's a male pitcher, so anyone who doesn't like his style rationalizes he tries to teach girls to throw like boys. My daughter essentially went to 2 pitching coaches during her career ... each one taught her different things, but Hillhouse did teach finishing across the body and not only did my DD love it, she had a pretty successful collegiate career with it despite not having all of the physical gifts lots of pitchers do ... and believe me, she is 100% woman. As I said above, either style can and does work ... 90% of the pitching coaches I have ever met (dozens and dozens of them) think they have the only way to do it, including Hillhouse. I don't buy into that, but don't tell me either that a finish across the body doesn't work for women or that it's not lady-like ... give me a break.

Very well said and could not agree more. By the way just discovered your daughter is currently student teaching in the building I work at. She seems like a nice young lady.

 

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Twenty20 ... oh wow, very small world! Yes, she is currently student teaching, as well as doing pitching lessons and fastpitch clinics, and helping coach a 12-U Ice team with me. I am very proud of her in many ways ... thanks! Don't tell her someone said she pitches like a man ... lol, kidding, kidding ... she did used to hide her pitching "man-arm" though when she would go out with friends!

 

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The follow through should be natural or uninhibited and as mentioned in another post, the angle of finish for a fastball can be determined by body angle and position at release. My concern is follow through is normally the finish to a path already chosen. We concern ourselves with follow through for many reasons but if the overall pitch is not on a correct plane during execution, the follow through will tell on the pitcher. With a pitcher at age 10, I am concerned with mechanics and control. Most 10 yr. olds are not very strong and made of rubber. They can have their arm flying all over the place and occasionally throw the pitch where we'd like it. We work on controlling her body/arm as much as we work on fundimentals and this can be a driving factor for a lot of pitching instructors to teach the elbow technique. The elbow is only as important as the hand in motion. I teach the girls to release the fastball and finish with the back of the hand to the catcher, simulating her flashing the "International sign of love" to the catcher at finish. Without that middle finger finishing correctly, the roll of the hand can scub speed from the fastball while still allowing the elbow to be pointing in the correct position. As the girls get older and get a better handle on their body, they'll develop little quirky things that give them a unique look to their pitching. It's not they are doing it wrong, they simply have developed a style that fits. The other mechanics are being executed.

I don't worry about such things in older girls and allow the movement to happen as long as the correct mechanics in the windmill are being used and the release doesn't hinder "flow" of a successful pitch. Again, the follow through can be a tattle tell. Yes, most girls follow through high for a fastball. The other pitches will finish lower because of what our expectations are of each pitch. We want the girls to crank up a fastball where a spin pitch will normally promote the arm/hand to finish lower. It's just common sense. Example; if a curveball is attempted and the finish is high towards her opposite shoulder, the pitch will in many attempts finish high and outside to a right-handed batter. Follow the plane of the pitch and the finish/follow thru told on the girl. Release point control is key. Results are normally found in the zones where the arm/hand travels.

Just my opinion. I hope this makes sense.

 

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I disagree. My dd doesn't pitch the Hillhouse style and finishes straight up. If you go to Hillhouse he teaches finishing across to the opposite shoulder, if you go to just about anyone else they teach finishing up. It all depends on which pitching coach you go to. I prefer pitchers who do not finish across their body and normally will not take a Hillhouse style pitcher. He is a very successful pitcher but men and women are not built the same and their pitching rules are not the same.

WOW! So Cat Osterman and Jennie Finch are out for you since the both finish across?

Pitching is an individual thing and there are many ways to accomplish the same thing. Do your girls throw over hand differently than Boys?

Take a minute and watch the Hillhouse video on FASTPITCH TV - I think you are being a bit closed minded - Hillhouse doesn?t Teach MEN Style pitching he just happens to be a man. Would you turn down a player just because they learned to play from Mike Candrea because he is male?

If the girl is getting outs who cares how she finishes? ? Altho IMHO the whip across the body seems to make much more sense and seems less stessfull on the arm and shoulder.

Fastpitch Softball TV Network ? Blog Archive ? Pitching Lessons – Bill Hillhouse – Episode 143

 

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No, Cat Osterman and Jennie Finch are out because they are too old for 14U....unless they have a 'Benchwarmers' birth certificate they can sneak by. I don't think a player that learned from Mike Candrea would be in Ohio looking for a 14u team....but if she was, I'd definitely give her a tryout.

Pitching IS an individual thing, different styles work for different kids. My dd and the pitchers on my team do not use the Hillhouse style. What you and I disagree on is that I believe he is teaching a men's style of pitch, where you seem to think I'm saying he is a man and shouldn't be teaching pitching. I wouldn't have a woman teach her that style either. I don't think it's close-minded to not like a pitching style, you don't like the style I like and I can respect that.

 

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Klump: Touch' I think you would probably be questioned on the Osterman, Finch combo - for any 14U tourney.

Agreed to disagree )

But honestly I don?t think Hillhouse teach 'Men's' pitching even though he played 'men's' Fast pitch.


Good luck for the season

 

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That would certainly be funny to see the faces on the opposing coaches if they were warming up on the sidelines.

 

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Great intimidation tactic but I would save it for nationals

 

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My DDs pitching coach uses a lot of what Bill teaches. But he also understands there are things that men can do that women can't in regards to style (leaping while pitching). There are also body issues that have to be taken into consideration as you mentioned. Pitching styles vary all over the map. Some we all agree with and some not. If you don't understand why something is done, do NOT be afraid to ask why it is done that way. What is important is finding one that best suits the pitcher and work with it. There will be lots of tweaking from 10-18U and maybe even older. Just enjoy the time she's in the circle.

 

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Strohbro; I agree completely especially about just enjoying the time.

I do want to make clear Bill Hillhouse is conscious of the rule and Physical differences between men and Women.

I do believe though that leaping etc is only in US competition I'm fairly sure international rules are generally the same as Girls but I could be wrong
(I have not paid much attention to Men’s Fast pitch)

Hillhouse does teach a strong leg push etc that are important for Girls – If you have ever seen him you would understand it’s not a Muscle thing it’s about using all parts of the body.

http://fastpitch.tv/episode-143-pitching-lessons-from-bill-hillhouse

 

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Daboss is correct - the finish is dependent on the pitch being thrown. I can't say I've ever seen a screwball finish (RH pitcher to RH batter) with a finish across the body. I agree with your philosophy of teaching beginners the way you describe, especially for control. Eventually on more advanced movement pitches the arm/hand finish will follow the pitch. High for a fastball or peel drop, across the body for a curve, high and out for a screw, straight ahead and low for a backhand change. A high finish for a backhand change will generally produce a hanger - not good.

Anyone who speaks in absolutes should be prepared to fully explain HOW and WHY you should always finish in a certain position. ALL top NCAA women's pitchers have finishes which follow the pitch. There has to be something to that...

Also, there is a lot of proof in watching actual game footage of pitchers (actually all athletes) in action. Although they might say they are doing a certain action, the video will often prove them wrong. They THINK they are doing it, but they actually are not. Nearly all MLB swings are identical from load to finish, and video proves that. However, some players will insist that they are doing something else. But the video doesn't lie.

Klump has some valid points. IMO, women pitchers mechanics are slightly different than men - possibly an upper body strength issue. Women pitchers tend to be more "full body" and legs, whereas men can do a lot more with just the upper body for arm whip. Just my opinion, but I think there are distinct differences.

 

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Actually, the pitch being thrown should not be tipped off by the finish. That is Hillhouse's main point. That is why all of his pitches finish where they do. Up or near the opposite shoulder. Coaches and hitters are becoming much better students of the game. They are picking up small little signals pitchers and hitters give them to use against them. Tendancies by a pitcher is not a good thing.

 

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Anyone who speaks in absolutes should be prepared to fully explain HOW and WHY you should always finish in a certain position. ALL top NCAA women's pitchers have finishes which follow the pitch. There has to be something to that...
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Hopefully they are following the ball to the target.

 

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WHAT THE H*LL????????????????????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHTr5RKGirI

 

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WHAT THE H*LL????????????????????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHTr5RKGirI

That is played under international men's rules. They are allowed to step back and to leap. In the 3 years he has been giving my dd lessons, he has always emphasized her pitching legally for the rule sets she plays under. Even when he demonstrates a pitch for her, he is sure to do it the way it is legal for her. He emphasizes leg drive and open mechanics.

 

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Crystle-
I just posted that to prove a point. He finishes over the right shoulder. But he CLEARLY is a great pitcher. So I think we are all making much too much out of all of this. We can teach one way or another. we have seen great pitchers with so many different styles. I am just happy that I can watch DD in the circle like Stroh said and I think we are all getting cabin fever here. Let get this season going!!!

 

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I understand. But I also know he finishes like that when he throws his rise up and tailing in. It is hard to tell sometimes what pitch they are throwing.

 

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The finish is not really the issue (though most successful pitchers do not finish up in a bicep curl position but more across or even out and across).

The issue is what are you trying to accomplish with your arm position on the backside of the circle.

If you are working down with your elbow slightly leading, pinky finger down with the palm facing third or third & partially up you are in the right position before release. The rest will happen automatically with adjustments from player to player.

If you are coming down the backside and your hand gets behind the ball and the hand gets ahead or even with the elbow and you try to snap your wrist (like the wrist snap drill) at the release point - then you are in trouble.

These are really the two styles being taught.

CORRECT

[video=youtube;k5X86nD_WS4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5X86nD_WS4[/video]