question about a call from last

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runners on 1st/2nd , our kid drills one (on the ground) down 3rd base line, home plate blue points FAIR, 3rd base blue points FOUL. They hold a little meeting and award our girl 1st base and the runners advanced 1 base. The opposing team was upset stating that the call should not have been overturned. We were not exactly thrilled because it cost us a run and a probable double. FWIW the next hitter cleared the bases with a double MD

 

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By the book (the umpire manual) the fair/foul call on this play belongs to the plate umpire. So that right there was the root cause of the foul-up- one umpire making a call that he had no business making. It works out okay if he happens to make the same call as the plate umpire, but when they make opposite calls you have a big problem.

The rules do allow umpires to correct any call that puts either team in jeopardy. There isn't any set in stone solution to fix it. The final "fix" is at the sole discretion of the plate umpire, with respect to enforcing outs or placing runners. The goal should be to set things as closely to what they would have been had the call not been confusing or reversed.

On this one, that might go a couple of different ways. One guideline is that once a batted ball is called foul, then it must stay foul, even if the foul call was a mistake. When players hear "foul" they tend to quit playing. Runners stop running and fielders stop making plays.

But the variable here is that the foul call came from an umpire that shouldn't have been making it and the one that should have made it called it fair. No matter what you come up with, somebody isn't going to be happy.

If this was a clear base hit, where there was no chance in the world of the defense making an out on the infield, then placing the batter on first and moving the runners up one base could be the most likely outcome.

The other option would be to simply call this a foul ball. I would go with that option if the call may have prevented the defense from making an out on the play. You can't assume the out and the runners may have stopped running when they heard the foul call.

Whatever happens, the plate umpire has the final say. He should take into consideration what the most likely outcome would have been had the double call not been made, taking into account where the ball was hit and how the players reacted, then place runners to best reflect that likely outcome.

 

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thanks Bret , In this case the ball was hit hard and 3rd base attempted to make the play but the ball was hugging the line and she had NO shot at it. So it clearly was a hit . She attempted to play it just couldn't get there. So I'd say the correct ruling was made. opposing team didn't like it but I knew immediately that home blue was the deciding authority on the call and he had it right the 1st time. It actually helped the Def' team , we only advanced 1 base instead of two. MD

 

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Let me vent about a crew we had yesterday at the Sheila Kitchen Memorial. Now, overall I thought this crew did a nice job all weekend, but in one game that was definitely not the case. First issue: we picked up a bunt off of the plate and threw the girl out for very crucial out with a girl in scoring position. Call overturned, they didn't know home plate was in fair territory. (2nd issue) a lefty slapper steps way out of the front of the box (foot planted) and gets a single. I obviously appeal foot placement. They agree foot was out and planted, but then (after a conference) agree that it is legal in ASA play. Of course I go get my book from the car because I am starting to lose my cool. Between innings I conference with the umps and show them the two rules they missed (from the rules book). Next inning there was a close play at first of Which we were on defense. It wasn't really close in my opinion,but of course I am biased. Anyway, crowd goes nuts over the call and I asked for an appeal if she was called safe on a foot pull? The field ump, obviously not happy with me already states that in the book it says a tie goes to the runner? So I asked him if he has ever read it? Because it clearly states there is no such thing as a tie, it is the umps discretion on the out/safe call. I was then warned about being tossed from the park. In my defense (after 4 misinterpretations;the other was them not knowing the rules for courtesy runners which I had to correct them on in the first inning) I never lose my cool, but I hope fellow OFC'ers understand my frustration on this issue. Again, I really thought these umpires did a nice job all weekend in the hot sun. It was just this one game that made me wonder why so many umps out there don't actually read the rules book?

 

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First issue: we picked up a bunt off of the plate and threw the girl out for very crucial out with a girl in scoring position. Call overturned, they didn't know home plate was in fair territory.

Hmmm...do you think that this was an inexperienced crew?

That sounds like a rookie mistake. Just about any class I have ever attended that covered the fair/foul rules makes certain to cover this play, stressing that home plate is located entirely in fair territory. A batted ball first touched while resting on home plate is a fair ball.

You would hope that these umpires learn from their mistake, then learn the rule for future games.

(2nd issue) a lefty slapper steps way out of the front of the box (foot planted) and gets a single. I obviously appeal foot placement. They agree foot was out and planted, but then (after a conference) agree that it is legal in ASA play.

This is a protestable rule misapplication, so you do have one recourse. You can file an official protest (and all that entails). If umps admit that foot was out of batter's box at contact, then batter should be out.

Again...The batter's foot placement is one the first things we learn when we learn the rules governing batters. You would expect an experienced umpire to know this.

Next inning there was a close play at first of Which we were on defense. It wasn't really close in my opinion,but of course I am biased. Anyway, crowd goes nuts over the call and I asked for an appeal if she was called safe on a foot pull? The field ump, obviously not happy with me already states that in the book it says a tie goes to the runner? So I asked him if he has ever read it? Because it clearly states there is no such thing as a tie, it is the umps discretion on the out/safe call.

An umpire should NEVER tell a coach that "A tie goes to the runner". Just...don't! It's a long story...and it will just get you in more trouble than it's worth!

If runner was safe, tell the coach that, "The runner beat the ball", (which is the only reason that she would be safe).

If runner was out, tell the coach that, "The ball beat the runner", (which is the only reason that she would be out).

Then jog back to your position and get ready for the next play.

All these mistakes sound like you had inexperienced umpires. These are all situations that come up every season. You hope that these umpires encounter enough of these that they will be forced to learn and know these rules. If you think that they did a good job the rest of the day, that is good news. That means that these umpires have potential. A couple of seasons experience and they shouldn't be making these rookie mistakes.

Not to single out these umpires. Any new umpire will make mistakes. It's what they do after the mistake (learn the right rule!) that will make them better umpires.

 

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Well said, Bretman!