Hitting and Hitters Discussion Rotational hitter popping up

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"The proof is in the pudding"

All that you have to do is talk to the parents and players who goto Howard. If thats not enough then just look at their before Howard numbers compared to their after Howard numbers. No doubt that these girls have to do their part when it comes to working on the technique to be successful at it...you only get what you put into it just like anything else. I think we need to add a new abbreviation to the stat sections of the scorebook. "BH" for before Howard and "AH" for After Howard...lol. How ya doing big guy?

Sonny

Just got the wife back from having her knee scoped and she is a little gimpy...I was wondering don't they shoot horses when this happens? :D

We like to think Sonny that what we teach is not that difficult to learn as we saw Coach Larabee buy in to it and do very well with it in less than 4 months....lets see what he does down south now in the SEC. He believes in throwing well leads to better hitting and is related to a linear weight shift and JoeA1010 I think buys into it also now.

We just had one of our girls from Harrison get a full ride at Valparaiso and went from short stop to catcher in two weeks because of her arm for throwing and it did not hurt that she went two for three hitting during practice....they saw her playing for Scott on the Stingrays over the summer. We just had another verbal to Furmon in SC.

We hope to see you possibly in Zanesville over the weekend and in Cincinnati the last week of Oct. for the clinic at McAulley. You know I just thought about it if Les, Tom, Kavin and you can do this then we have a system after all! :)

Thanks Howard
 
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Wow, First I want to thank all of you who took your time to help a perfect stranger, but from coming to OFC for a number of months I am not surprised, I don't have any video yet, only still pictures taken from the dugout. But she has just been invited to play for an "A" bracket team as a guest player this weekend, so I will tag along as a dad not coach with the camcorder and shoot some video. Most of the response is leading me to a shoulder alignment issue, which makes sense if she is still trying to figure out the swing plane of the pitch and not just uppercutting, that may be why it doesn't happen all the time. Patrick Hunter

Sometimes getting the girls to feel it is a huge step forward...take a rope or bungee cord and have the hitter get ready to hit by bending at the waist and then softening the knees next in that order....we start the stance at about 1 to 1.5 the width of the shoulders and usually wider is better than narrower. Get a good two eyed look and we like to start the hands at about the top of the shoulders with the back elbow away and lead elbow downward verses being to far up or away. Slow to load, soft to step on a flexed front and separate the hands rearward slightly....apply a little tension to the rope or cord and observe where her hands travel? Did the hands stay inside the path of the ball or did they move towards the second base mans playing position? If she made what we term a good first move the lead elbow will go forward and up slightly and the rear elbow will lower or what we say begin to slot. It is not pushing with the top hand as usually you will see grounders...IF the back elbow swings forward and gets forward of the top hand you will see the lead shoulder tilt upwards and the back shoulders lowers. If you take the left hand and pull on the top hand elbow you will feel the pressure and if looking in a mirror you will see the tilt and feel it. We want to stay connected and have both elbows work together as a unit. If she is pulling the knob of the bat or rope or cord forward she will feel the strength in her entire body. The next issue is make sure the top hand elbow clears the body and does not get to where it touches or you will loose power. Ask your daughter to get the elbow too close and you will feel the power of her pulling forward be reduced and then keep it away and you will feel the greater force return.

When the bat is at contact and you are hitting it up the middle the elbow will be about at or near the height of the shoulder and your hands will be below the elbow and the bat head below the hands at a slight angle. Let us know how this works for you for as far as I know we have never worked together before and as what his names pointed out this is a S.W.A.G. however I am not one who thinks everyone needs video if you have some knowledge on hitting in my opinion... Chris is correct it helps however we are not building a nuclear weapon.

One final drill would be to take the top hand and turn it upside down so you see the back of her top hand and the thumb is pointed down, as she swings tell her to lead with the lead arm elbow and pull the bat out of her top hand and let it go and finish high and she will probably feel extension for the first time. Most girls will stop at contact and give up and you will see the wrist rolls and they hit their shoulder or back as evidence they are not getting to extension. Combined with the top hand and rope and this drill should get some results especially if she is trying to hit the middle of the ball and no more than 1 inch below the center of the ball.

Howard
 
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Just got the wife back from having her knee scoped and she is a little gimpy...I was wondering don't they shoot horses when this happens? :D

We like to think Sonny that what we teach is not that difficult to learn as we saw Coach Larabee buy in to it and do very well with it in less than 4 months....lets see what he does down south now in the SEC. He believes in throwing well leads to better hitting and is related to a linear weight shift and JoeA1010 I think buys into it also now.

We just had one of our girls from Harrison get a full ride at Valparaiso and went from short stop to catcher in two weeks because of her arm for throwing and it did not hurt that she went two for three hitting during practice....they saw her playing for Scott on the Stingrays over the summer. We just had another verbal to Furmon in SC.

We hope to see you possibly in Zanesville over the weekend and in Cincinnati the last week of Oct. for the clinic at McAulley. You know I just thought about it if Les, Tom, Kavin and you can do this then we have a system after all! :)

Thanks Howard

I guess I still have the "step child" lemming card...

You know, regardless of who's system a DD must work on a Tee and spend time working basic mechanics. I hope you have an instructor that can identify "techinque" issues and not just change things because they can. It's not about what you know and listening to oneself talk, it's about connecting with the issue and advising your player on how to fix the issue and send them home with "homework".

I also agree.. if you can post a video for us to see we'd love to chime in.
 
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Just got the wife back from having her knee scoped and she is a little gimpy...I was wondering don't they shoot horses when this happens? :D

We like to think Sonny that what we teach is not that difficult to learn as we saw Coach Larabee buy in to it and do very well with it in less than 4 months....lets see what he does down south now in the SEC. He believes in throwing well leads to better hitting and is related to a linear weight shift and JoeA1010 I think buys into it also now.

We just had one of our girls from Harrison get a full ride at Valparaiso and went from short stop to catcher in two weeks because of her arm for throwing and it did not hurt that she went two for three hitting during practice....they saw her playing for Scott on the Stingrays over the summer. We just had another verbal to Furmon in SC.

We hope to see you possibly in Zanesville over the weekend and in Cincinnati the last week of Oct. for the clinic at McAulley. You know I just thought about it if Les, Tom, Kavin and you can do this then we have a system after all! :)

Thanks Howard

DONT SHOOT HER...lol! Yeah, I heard TB is heading to Valpo but did not realize they were converting her to catcher. What position does the girl who verbaled to furman play? We played a DH scrimmage against IUS this past Sunday and I asked their coaches about how they liked having Crystl down there for the clinic a couple of weeks ago. They said it was awesome and that they really enjoyed watching her hit bombs afterward. I saw Tom at skyline last night picking up a large to go order...you are going to have to keep him busy at these clinics or he could end up looking like me or Kavin...lol. We are supposed to play this weekend and next so just let me know what times the clinics are and I will see if it will work. One of my new girls goes to your guy Pete and she had a nice double to the fence aginst IUS in her debut. Mac had a nice double to the fence against them as well...keep up the good work! Talk to you soon!
 
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I guess I still have the "step child" lemming card...

You know, regardless of who's system a DD must work on a Tee and spend time working basic mechanics. I hope you have an instructor that can identify "techinque" issues and not just change things because they can. It's not about what you know and listening to oneself talk, it's about connecting with the issue and advising your player on how to fix the issue and send them home with "homework".

I also agree.. if you can post a video for us to see we'd love to chime in.

Awe..."step child" lemmings need love too...lol. Hey Les, one day, and that day may be soon or may never come but if it does the phone may ring and someone on the other end may tell you he needs to have a sit down wit ya(probably a big guy with a beard and glasses). One of two things could happen...1) you might get "made" into the lemming brotherhood or 2) you might get shot because you may have seen too much...lol
 
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Dear Howard:

My point was NOT to gore anybody's pet bull. My frustration is EVERYBODY seems to know how to make your kids better, IF you pay a boatload of money and realize they may not be worth a darn for a year or two......or ever again. The proof of Crystl is in her pudding(no pun intended), and frankly she is the one we have broken down tape on on the hi-def big screen in the basement for pure hitting. We did the same thing for Natasha for slapping. But again, my main point was we have had every single new guy tell us his way was best, and the other guys/girls teaching were idiots. Can they ALL be wrong? Also, I guess I am old enough not to know many of the "new" terms involving hitting, and don't know for sure which buzzwords to associate with which system. BK and I (well, I know I speak for myself for sure) weren't tryong to pick/start fights, just frustrated. If you really want to know the "Systems" we have had thrust upon us, and the contradictions from year to year, PM me.
 
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LC,
I agree that I wasnt trying to start a fight. My daughter has also had different systems taught to her. Her high school coach (good coach by the way, sorry to see her leave) was always trying the latest system. Problem was, my daughter always seemed like she was getting caught between the different systems, having a hard time seperating them. She finally went back to what she was comfortable with and found her swing again. Is it perfect? No. But it works for her. I sounds like Howard's philosophy isn't so much changing the swing totally, but more about making it better, working with what is already there. That is what I think anyway. I am going to call Howard and find out though. If the throwing aspect helps my daughters arm then I will be happy. But sounds like it may help swing as well and that is gravy as far as I am concerned. Just my two cents (probably not worth that much).
 
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Dear Howard:

My point was NOT to gore anybody's pet bull. My frustration is EVERYBODY seems to know how to make your kids better, IF you pay a boatload of money and realize they may not be worth a darn for a year or two......or ever again. The proof of Crystl is in her pudding(no pun intended), and frankly she is the one we have broken down tape on on the hi-def big screen in the basement for pure hitting. We did the same thing for Natasha for slapping. But again, my main point was we have had every single new guy tell us his way was best, and the other guys/girls teaching were idiots. Can they ALL be wrong? Also, I guess I am old enough not to know many of the "new" terms involving hitting, and don't know for sure which buzzwords to associate with which system. BK and I (well, I know I speak for myself for sure) weren't tryong to pick/start fights, just frustrated. If you really want to know the "Systems" we have had thrust upon us, and the contradictions from year to year, PM me.

Look forward to talking with you and sent you a PM...there was a person there at the NPF playoffs from Harrisburg and I worked with his daughter a little bit..I think they said they were with the Alley Cats and were nice people. Some of the very basic stuff we went over he had never seen it before and she took to it quickly. She talked directly to Crystl and Jenny Topping and was surprised she got the same answers...it is fun when you see the light go off and they get it or as we say see it, feel it and fix it.

I sensed your frustration and did not take it the wrong way.

Thanks Howard
 
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Howard -

Would you provide a description of the proper throwing technique (form)? I've always thought you do a great job of providing a step by step description of the batter's swing, but I've never seen you do the same for throwing.
 
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DONT SHOOT HER...lol! Yeah, I heard TB is heading to Valpo but did not realize they were converting her to catcher. What position does the girl who verbaled to furman play? We played a DH scrimmage against IUS this past Sunday and I asked their coaches about how they liked having Crystl down there for the clinic a couple of weeks ago. They said it was awesome and that they really enjoyed watching her hit bombs afterward. I saw Tom at skyline last night picking up a large to go order...you are going to have to keep him busy at these clinics or he could end up looking like me or Kavin...lol. We are supposed to play this weekend and next so just let me know what times the clinics are and I will see if it will work. One of my new girls goes to your guy Pete and she had a nice double to the fence aginst IUS in her debut. Mac had a nice double to the fence against them as well...keep up the good work! Talk to you soon!

Pitcher and outfield and a great stick to boot plus GREAT grades!
 
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Howard -

Would you provide a description of the proper throwing technique (form)? I've always thought you do a great job of providing a step by step description of the batter's swing, but I've never seen you do the same for throwing.

When I first work with a hitter if I see no evidence of a weight shift and flexed front leg I ask them to throw and what we see is the back foot does not release from the ground as their front leg is not flexed allowing the weight to shift forward. I have never seen a girl look ugly in her swing and throw correctly.....I have had boys however that have an ugly swing and are pitchers and throw well however never with a girl.

We relate to throwing in our hitting analogy to they can feel the momentum building as they throw or hit (our floor is marked for the pattern to follow so they can see how much further they are moving forward by flexing the knee and driving off the back leg)....the hand going back to throw and the hands separating slightly to hit. Usually they comment something feels different in their hip or legs and they feel stronger! They most likely used their legs for the first time. When ask if their arm hurt anymore they say no! Using a radar gun we have seen typical increases of 5 to 8 MPH minimum when they flex the knee and release verses not coming through.

Have them get into their position to get ready to release the ball i.e. they have stepped and are bringing the arm over and hold just the index and social finger and gently pull them forward and IF the knee is flexed you will feel little resistance and if the knee is stiff you will pull the fingers out of their hand (just kidding) however they will feel a tug and feel the difference. Getting the girls to feel the difference is huge in their learning anything new.

Watch the girls during warm ups and it looks like the back foot is nailed to the ground and typically you will see the boys release a little if not completely.

The above has been in the throwing section for a while....the main issue we see is the female does not fire the knees like the male and it is in the glutes. When a male jumps up the glutes fire the knees and the knees bend slightly and this does not happen automatically in the female however it can be taught. If you have a son and a daughter which one makes the most noise coming down the stairs? You do not need video for that. Have a girl bend at the waist and soften the knees next and ask her to land on the balls of her feet and she will not land as hard or as loud. It is termed sequential core loading and without getting too scientific, the girls spine is mounted almost horizontal and the male is tilted forward and it is due to pregnancy so the girl can adjust for the 15 to 35 pounds extra. Dan this does not pertain to your beer gut as you will just have to live with it and the back pain!

Think of Chipper Jones hitting and standing taller in the box and then think of Manny and Manny sets up like a girl and sits lower like a girl and that is his style. We tell our girls no butt sticking out no balance and can prove it.

The huge thing we teach the girls is a basic karate move....when we punch in karate we punch so the shoulder does not come forward and the energy is from the thrust of the turning fist and the tucking in or pulling back when we punch with the other hand. We have the hitter stand at an angle with me and we lock finger tips and as I begin to throw keeping my elbow above my shoulder height I pull using my glove hand so the back of my hand is visible to me and take my elbow rearward tucking the glove under my shoulder and allowing the elbow to clear my body completely and pull the hitter towards me. Then I have them do it to me and say tuck me in and pull me in and through and they will feel the throwing arm shoulder have more force and power. What we usually see when the girls throw is they will allow the glove to just rest against the chest area and never move rearward or clear the body. The biggest issue is the back leg never releases from the ground as the front leg never bends and stays stiff not allowing for a weight transfer to happen. When they land on the ball of their foot the transfer happens almost automatically. For the hard sell cases we have them get into a boys pitching position with the legs separated and as they move the front leg towards the back leg, they bring the hands together chest high or what we term as the gathered position I then stand in front of them and ask them to raise their leg and then I put my arm under their knee and stabilize them by pointing their toe down and sitting on their back foot leg a little. Be careful as they may start to loose their balance and if so have them grab your shoulder. Get them to feel balanced and hold their position then back away and tell them to drive off the back leg and forward and throw the ball....usually this will get them to release and transfer the weight forward and most for the first time. When I ask the fathers to show me how they throw in most cases they only allow the back leg to slightly come forward and when we point it out they come farther forward....yes even they forget.

There is another drill were we lay on the back in the throwing section also and when we tape the ball so we can see the spin of the ball when someone throws the ball to us.

Hope this helps Howard
 
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When all else fails...... See Ball, Hit Ball. That's as simple as it gets.
 
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Greetings everyone, Long time lurker who just joined the group today 9/29/09 I have sent a PM to Hitter, but wanted to ask the question here also. We are teaching my 11year old dd rotational theory hitting, and recently she has started on occasion to hit major league popups instead of line drives, any thoughts would be appreciated.

There are so many things that could cause your dd to pop up. Hands not inside and above the ball, severe attack angle, focusing on the bottom of the ball, too much tilt, bad head position, hitching, etc. Video or even action still photos would be helpful.

I am curious though.....why did you decide on the rotational theory for your dd and is it pure rotational theory or is your dd taking a step forward? I've seen coaches and teachers call their hitting philosophy "rotational hitting" even though there is a forward step along with a weight shift. Other coaches and teachers teach the hitters to lift up the front foot and put it back down right where it was as some form of timing mechanism, and others do not have their hitters move their front foot at all. For instance, Mike Epstein says he teaches rotational hitting however his style of rotational hitting involves a forward (linear) weight shift. Which style is your dd being taught?

Len
 
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Here we go again. All swings have an element of both linear and rotational movement. It doesn't matter what instructors is teaching it, or what they're teaching. It's just a label to define movement of the body during an overall swing process.

If you truly want to get into a discussion about linear rotational movement then you have to talk about hand path to the ball. In the overall movement of the body as the hitter strides forward that is linear movement of the core towards the ball. As the hitter arrives at foot plant then rotational movement of the core begins initiating movement of the hands. That is if the hitter isn't doing a negative move with their hands. For the purpose of this example let's assume they are not.

If the hitter is taking their hands to the ball, the knob of the bat the ball, casting out to the ball, or any other number of things that would break connection, then more often than not their hands will move in a linear direction towards the ball. And it will look something like this example.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=17&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

If you stay connected during the swing in the hitter will have a circular hand path. Something that looks like this:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/northwestern2006wcws?p=2&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

It is the hand path to the ball that determines if a hitter has a linear disconnected swing, or a circular connected swing to the ball.

As for the hitter popping up it would be my guess that she is getting her back elbow in front of her hands as she is coming to the ball. Something that looks like this:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=23&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

This is commonly referred to as bat drag. I would advise you to keep your eyes on your daughter's back elbow as she swings and see if this is what's going on in the reason she's popping up. I have seen this many many times at the ball field and with my students.

Dana
 
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There are tons of things that can produce a pop up on a rotational hitter.
Shoulders unlevel,Dropping back shoulder created by a bad tilt kid not fully understanding the mechanics of the swing, compensating the timing by getting under then trying to get through,short stride and getting over the front foot . Trying to hit the inside pitch and loosing the plant on the front foot,just a myriad of the=ings that can cause this.There is really way too many things that can cause a pop up. Do we have a video of a hit?
 
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Good post Dana. How things in Texas? Boy if you posted this on discuss fastpitch , or baseball 101 you would get attacked by both camps. I stay clear of that subject.
 
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Here we go again. All swings have an element of both linear and rotational movement. It doesn't matter what instructors is teaching it, or what they're teaching. It's just a label to define movement of the body during an overall swing process.
Dana

Dana, I disagree on your first point. All taught swings do not have elements of both linear and rotational elements. Some teachers and coaches teach no step, barred arm at contact, squish the bug, wrist roll, etc. In other words, a pure rotational swing. I'm not saying it's the correct method, I'm just saying that it's being taught, and I'm just trying to find out what exactly her "rotational hitting method" is.

Len
 
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Len,

We are allowed to disagree but I don't think we're that far apart when it comes to discussing different hitting methods. What I'm trying to say here is that there is always linear movement of the lower half of the hitter. They may be stride or they may be no stride hitters. But if you watch closely enough as the front foot comes down to stride or no stride the weight will shift forward creating linear movement. The hips will almost always slide forward in a no stride hitter. That still constitutes linear movement.

This is why I choose to focus on the hand path and not the overall body movement. The hitter who is barring during the swing is still creating linear movement of the hand path out away from their body. Their arm straightens as they swing the bat. This puts them in the power V position before contact. In other words disconnected and taking thier hands to the ball.

Dana
 

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