Hitting and Hitters Discussion Rotational hitter popping up

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Dan,

That's one of the reasons you don't see me post very often on those sites any longer. I don't have time for dissecting all the **** I see on those sites.

Dana.
 
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Detective,

Let me give you some advice. Change your daughters rotational theory of hitting to a linear theory of hitting. With a rotational hitter (aka squashing the bug) the batter usually ends up having their weight forward which in turn collapses her back side and then drops her hands. You should think about linear hitting. This theory speaks of weight transfer. Your daughter should load all her weight on her back foot then transfer the weight to her front side. Her back foot should almost end up like a golfers follow through b/c she needs to push off the inside of her back foot and finish on her toe. This is only the lower half of the body she needs to work on. The upper half should lead with the elbow to the inside of the ball to get her hands inside and allow her push from her wrists to give her more distance on the ball. Sounds complicated, but if you speak to someone about linear hitting I'm sure they would be able to explain to you much easier. Hopefully this helps and if you have anymore questions feel free to message me.
 
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Thanks again for all the helpful ideas, I will try to take some video this weekend, I am not sure where to post some still pictures that I have been asked about, but I did post one pic of her swing as my avatar if this helps anyone, let me know what you see, or if you want some different views I can just change my avatar. Patrick Hunter
 
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OhioLadys,

I have seen any number of hitters both linear and rotational in hand path "Squish the Bug" as you say and I think we can both agree that isn't what is needed for any hitter.

This is the problem when we try to communicate on the net. The movements you describe in your post as linear are the exact same movements another instructor would define as "Rotational" movements in their post. I know a very popular instructor on this site that might say that what you described is what he teaches. He would define it as linear and rotational IMO. Then someone else will add another example and give it a "Label" and then the confusion begins for all.

So, can you please explain your definition of Linear swing vs Rotational swing? What is your criteria for those swings just so we can talk apples to apples.

Dana
 
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MantouDan,

If that is your daughter in your Avitar that is a nice looking position she is in with that swing. Well connected and back foot up on the toe. Great swing plane to the ball.

Keep up the good work.

Dana.
 
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OhioLadys,

I have seen any number of hitters both linear and rotational in hand path "Squish the Bug" as you say and I think we can both agree that isn't what is needed for any hitter.

This is the problem when we try to communicate on the net. The movements you describe in your post as linear are the exact same movements another instructor would define as "Rotational" movements in their post. I know a very popular instructor on this site that might say that what you described is what he teaches. He would define it as linear and rotational IMO. Then someone else will add another example and give it a "Label" and then the confusion begins for all.
Dana

Dana

This is exactly what I was trying to get across in my original post when gmdetective stated that his dd was being taught a rotational swing.

Len
 
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Thanks again for all the helpful ideas, I will try to take some video this weekend, I am not sure where to post some still pictures that I have been asked about, but I did post one pic of her swing as my avatar if this helps anyone, let me know what you see, or if you want some different views I can just change my avatar. Patrick Hunter

Unless your avatar pic is an optical illusion, I would say her swing plane was downward (chopping wood) and it looks like she pounded this particular pitch into the ground, unless that is not the ball in front of her left foot. I am basing this on where the bat head is, the ball is, and the catchers mitt is. Her hand path is still unknown as far as linear, eliptical, or circular. This kind of swing plane can (believe it or not) also pop a ball up into the air. Is she being taught to swing down on the ball? Is she being taught to take the knob of the bat to the ball? As far as her body movement, it appears that she does take a linear step towards the pitcher, is this correct?

Len
 
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If it aint broke don't fix it is my philosophy. I have been to all the hitting clinics, classes, and seminars but the fact remains, not all hitters will adapt to a system and become great hitters in my opinion.

I have seen, and coached, some players with not so very "textbook" swings but they have hit the ball very well.

If a player is producing I won't mess with it at all. This may not be the "Correct" way, but bottom line is we want base hits on a consistant basis and if we are getting that why mess with it.
 
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Update, after reading some posters discriptions on rotational and linear she maybe more linear. She played a 10u two day tourney this past weekend, after working on drills given to me by several members of OFC, I am happy to say through 6 games she only had two popups ( both were up and over the backstop) hitting .500 with her third ever homerun. Thanks again to all, who without being able to see her live, were able to provide excellent advise, the main problem and one we worked on the most was shoulder alignment, in trying to have a circular handpath to the ball she was dipping her back shoulder or when she didn't do that would have a downward hitch of her hands before exploding to the ball, the other thing we are working on is slow to load. More to follow we play up in a 12u tourney this weekend. Patrick Hunter DC Cougars 10U Thomasville, NC. P.S Anyone here on Facebook?
 
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ifubuildit,

Rotational swing: Means that when a batter uses their lower half they only simply squash the bug with their back foot and their weight stays centered and does not transfer. The upper body is supposed to do the same thing with rotational hitting as it is with linear hitting. The hips open up and square to the pitcher which gives problems for a batter who wants to take the outside pitch to the right side. Another disadvantage of this is that the weight does not transfer forward and takes away from their power.

Linear swing: Means that when a batter loads their weight back and when the pitch comes in, they transfer that weight forward through their swing to give themselves more power. The follow through should come high and over their shoulder and the weight should end up forward and at times you find yourself with your shoulders over your front foot because you have transferred all that weight forward. The hips should never fully rotate to where they are squared with the pitcher. That opens the body up and does not allow good contact with outside pitches. Thats where you get the rotational hitting theory. Instead they should push from the inside of the back foot and your hips should push forward almost in a line (a.k.a. linear hitting) towards your pitcher. Obviously this is too hard to explain through words and would be much easier to understand if it were demonstrated. Hopefully this helps identify the differences between the two types of hitting.
 
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ifubuildit,

Rotational swing: Means that when a batter uses their lower half they only simply squash the bug with their back foot and their weight stays centered and does not transfer. The upper body is supposed to do the same thing with rotational hitting as it is with linear hitting. The hips open up and square to the pitcher which gives problems for a batter who wants to take the outside pitch to the right side. Another disadvantage of this is that the weight does not transfer forward and takes away from their power.

Linear swing: Means that when a batter loads their weight back and when the pitch comes in, they transfer that weight forward through their swing to give themselves more power. The follow through should come high and over their shoulder and the weight should end up forward and at times you find yourself with your shoulders over your front foot because you have transferred all that weight forward. The hips should never fully rotate to where they are squared with the pitcher. That opens the body up and does not allow good contact with outside pitches. Thats where you get the rotational hitting theory. Instead they should push from the inside of the back foot and your hips should push forward almost in a line (a.k.a. linear hitting) towards your pitcher. Obviously this is too hard to explain through words and would be much easier to understand if it were demonstrated. Hopefully this helps identify the differences between the two types of hitting.

Good thread...I would offer this as an opinion, too much has been put into Charlie Lau Sr. as linear because they finished over the front leg verses in my opinion TSW finishing up against the front leg at a slight angle. This is where some instructors see the glass half empty or half full...if you are over the front leg I do not view it as an elite swing and if you are pulling off the outside pitch you are more rotational in that portion of your swing which was linear if you stepped forward.

So if we load and then stepped forward on a flexed front knee in my opinion you were linear prior to anything which would considered rotational.

Now look for the rear elbow to start to lower or begin to slot and did the lead elbow move forward and up or did it just go up or down? If it went forward it was a linear move first and if the shoulders just turned it would be considered more rotational and a huge point of understanding is if it was an outside pitch the hitter may be pulling off the ball verses an inside pitch. Look at how far the knob of the bat was pulled forward in relationship to the elbows and was the knob inside the path of the ball and leading the elbows and again that is a yes or no question and if it is yes we are still being linear in this phase of the swing.

Now as the decision is being made to hit the ball look for the rear shoulder to begin its tilt as the front shoulder should be moving upward as the lead elbow made a good first move and the back elbow is lowering and the knob of the bat is being pulled forward and the back shoulder begins to lower because the front shoulder is going up slightly or to tilt. Try it with out a bat and take your rear elbow and pull it a head with your lead hand and you will see the front shoulder rise and the back shoulder lower...I do not say it drops...I would never drop a glass of Jack Daniels however I will lower it back to the table!

Again look for the knob of the bat to be ahead of the elbows.

Now look for where the belly button or belt buckle is being directed and this is in my opinion where your semi circular motion move is starting. Again for me it is not totally rotational because you have seen the hips moving forward, the elbows moving forward and the knob of the bat moving forward and now we will begin to turn.

Now based on the balls location you should see the belly button/ hips begin the movement and we will release the wrist and the bat head based on the balls flight path.

Now tell me where the swing was just linear or just rotational and then explain where it was semi circular?

Now try it your self...choke up on a bat about 6 inches and very slowly start your swing and lets make it an outside pitch first. Pay particular attention to the knob of the bat and where it pivots at during the swing and you will find it is at contact with the ball and just after. Again establishing the pivot point as it was moving until the bat made contact with the ball and in my mind and opinion that was not a pure rotational move until just prior to contact with the ball...so is it rotational or semi circular? Where was it linear and when did it become semi circular and when did it become completely rotational?

Now try it with a pitch down the middle and then inside and you will see the pivot point move in relationship to the belly button and the location of the ball.

I am open to interpretation however I am closed minded to linear or simply rotational as to what happens during a swing as I see a lot of semi circular or elliptical however no true rotational movement.

Howard
 
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Check on her follow through. does she continue her swing after the contact correctly? Pop ups may occur also when she swings too late, which makes her not hit the ball fully.

softball hitting
 
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MantouDan,

If that is your daughter in your Avitar that is a nice looking position she is in with that swing. Well connected and back foot up on the toe. Great swing plane to the ball.

Keep up the good work.

Dana.



Dana
I thought the same thing.

She has a nice looking swing and her head is right there.

Good work to the man on the OH river.



Straightleg
 
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Ohio Ladies,

This is where definitions and personal interpretations get somewhat gray.

There is a lot of discussion about rotating around the spine as it relates to rotational hitting instruction. The more I study, the less I think this is what I see hitters doing during the swing. It is quite possible that some instructors refer to "rotation around the spine" as a kind of "shorthand" phraseology that works for them. It doesn't work for me.

Not the strong rotation part - that is a universal. But the axis of that rotation. Its clear to me that elite hitters generate forward momentum, which they then transfer to rotation. Those that stride clearly carry the weight forward to the front side. This isn?t a STEP, it's a carry of the weight, and once you start to look for it, it's obvious. Those great hitters who don't stride (Softball and baseball) accomplish the same thing. The result is kind of a shape to the body as rotation begins. (Howards post above)

Given that rotation around the spine will not be efficient. If it is even possible, it is only possible by letting weight flow back. (This is what Epstien teaches) Most typically, the weight never gets off the back foot in the first place. I would submit to you in rotational hitting the axis is the front hip. Not on the back leg.

This brings a lot into the equation beyond just momentum. Such as the possibility of a "whip" or sequenced segmentation / unload. Which is ideal for an elite hitter. I think you'll find this easier to both visualize and execute when the axis is driven forward by momentum, BUT THEN FIRMLY ESTABLISHED at the front hip. This is accomplished by keeping the front foot closed heel plant. Combine that with the speed developed simply by creating forward momentum, and there are great possibilities. Of course, as always, the devil is in the details, and developing momentum is a BAD thing UNLESS it is efficiently transferred into rotation. That would simply be a lunge. Which is often what I see with your definition of Linear hitting used at the lower levels.

All great hitters have elements of linear and rotational movement. Even in the "Rotational" community instructors cant agree on standard methods. Many instructors no longer recognize linear vs rotational as an argument because they understand there are elements of both in a swing. The problem is how do you describe movement without using those terms?

Howard took a pretty good shot at it with his post above.


Dana.
 
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Ohio Ladies,

This is where definitions and personal interpretations get somewhat gray.

There is a lot of discussion about rotating around the spine as it relates to rotational hitting instruction. The more I study, the less I think this is what I see hitters doing during the swing. It is quite possible that some instructors refer to "rotation around the spine" as a kind of "shorthand" phraseology that works for them. It doesn't work for me.

Not the strong rotation part - that is a universal. But the axis of that rotation. Its clear to me that elite hitters generate forward momentum, which they then transfer to rotation. Those that stride clearly carry the weight forward to the front side. This isn?t a STEP, it's a carry of the weight, and once you start to look for it, it's obvious. Those great hitters who don't stride (Softball and baseball) accomplish the same thing. The result is kind of a shape to the body as rotation begins. (Howards post above)

Given that rotation around the spine will not be efficient. If it is even possible, it is only possible by letting weight flow back. (This is what Epstien teaches) Most typically, the weight never gets off the back foot in the first place. I would submit to you in rotational hitting the axis is the front hip. Not on the back leg.

This brings a lot into the equation beyond just momentum. Such as the possibility of a "whip" or sequenced segmentation / unload. Which is ideal for an elite hitter. I think you'll find this easier to both visualize and execute when the axis is driven forward by momentum, BUT THEN FIRMLY ESTABLISHED at the front hip. This is accomplished by keeping the front foot closed heel plant. Combine that with the speed developed simply by creating forward momentum, and there are great possibilities. Of course, as always, the devil is in the details, and developing momentum is a BAD thing UNLESS it is efficiently transferred into rotation. That would simply be a lunge. Which is often what I see with your definition of Linear hitting used at the lower levels.

All great hitters have elements of linear and rotational movement. Even in the "Rotational" community instructors cant agree on standard methods. Many instructors no longer recognize linear vs rotational as an argument because they understand there are elements of both in a swing. The problem is how do you describe movement without using those terms?

Howard took a pretty good shot at it with his post above.


Dana.

Dana after reading Bruce Lee's book this past winter he describe the body as flowing, many, many years ago way before any of us ever thought about it. Crystl had bought me his book and we started using a half full water bottle and we have the hitter put their hand under my hand and I lay the bottle horizontal and shift the water from one end and say load and the water will shift to the other end and seek it's level on its own....Newton for action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Then I shift the water again and control the flow of the water however I do not let the water slosh as we want to control it. Then I have the hitter feel it in their hand and they do it.

We want them to be able to control their movement like the water in the bottle...we have them load and step and unless their front knee is flexed and they are on the inside edge of the lead foot they will not feel it and to get them to feel it we gently hit their lead foot thigh with our hand and they will feel the wiggle ( we explain it as jello on a plate has a wiggle) then they stiffen the knee or straighten it out and the front leg becomes rigid and no wiggle. By landing on the flexed knee and being on the inside edge of the foot so they could move the baby toe and their hips become the water or flow like the water.

The big issue for me is where is the pivot point in the swing that everyone claims is that rotational movement everyone claims happens and I say it is about 4 to 6 inches from the end of the knob of the bat as we make contact because we rotate as needed base on the location of the pitch.

Thanks Dana
 
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Or you could try what Tim (bouldersdad) did for my dd when she would have those moments when she forgot what Howard had taught her and have the ever popular Pop Up Push Up! After about the 4th time during one double header she just walked off the field and dropped and gave him 10 by the dugout. Lots of funny looks and laughter when we explained what she was doing. Lets say she will never forget the times she played with his DD and got to work with him!

No, the pushups did not stop the pop-ups but did make her think a little (this is one occasion where she needed to think less not more) and work on the problem. Then Howard developed the BOB remedy and that has helped a lot!

Howard and Crystl will be doing a clinic in Cincy on the 24th-good place to come get a workout and some advice and suggestions!
 

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