Hitting and Hitters Discussion Rotational hitting

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In my opinion Len has stated it pretty well by saying trans rotational with an elliptical hand path.

Being able to stay in the big zone longer gives the hitter a better advantage to make contact with the ball. When we start working with a kid the big zone is normally less than 45 inches. As they see the differences in a mirror usually 50 to 55 inches is not uncommon.

I think anyone can learn how to do it and teach it. However I will say after working with both males and females that our teaching methods are altered to accommodate the differences in the male and female bodies.

Teaching the student how to throw first has been a huge step forward to gaining an understanding of how the body works.

This also helps in gaining an awareness of how the body must be balanced during the stance and to the stride or static verses dynamic balance. You do this as you throw so it is a natural lead in too hitting.

Also the female in general is an audio visual learner and when they can see themselves doing it and they can feel the differences they pick up on it faster.

After working with Crystl for 10 years we have found a way to teach and communicate it that appears to work however it does take work on the coaches and hitter to make it successful.

You are correct that some kids and parents want the quick fix or as one coach stated the dumb down version so the girls can understand it. I can not believe some coaches feel that way!

Coaches like Marry Ellen Bonner, Cshilt, Bouldersdad, Sbfamily, Crush1, Kavin Morgan, Les Rogers, Scott Morrison, Starightleg, Lady Knights, Justine Schilt, Charles Kelly, Tom Lee, Shannon Wullenweber, Mike Larabee, Ted and Carol, Jeff Oakley, Cubsfan, Gary Davis, Tamara Davis, Jerry Breaux have worked with us at clinics or here at the garage and understands what it takes.

Howard

 

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Maybe Mike Epstein would be a better example regarding instruction on rotational mechanics, I could be wrong but I think he actually coined the term.

As I understand the swing it starts with a lineal motion albeit a small one towards the pitch (straight, inside or outside) in relation to where the pitched ball approaches the plate. The back elbow slots into the rib cage by the belt and front elbow pulls slightly up and towards the pitcher (as if you were going to elbow someone in the shoulder in the front of the batters box). The elbows remain a fairly constant distance apart for the first part of the swing and don't actually come together in any meaningful dimension until full extension. Anyways, once the elbows have strted their motion this drops the bat flat on plane with the pitch and keeps the bat on plane throughout the hitting zone. When the front leg plants the leg straightens starting the rotation of the hips and keeps the weight back and utilizes the most muscle groups in one smooth explosion through the ball. The hands stay high and tight and the arms are in a powerful position at point of contact (elbows bent at this point). Contact is optimal out in front of the thigh and arm extension happens after contact with the ball. It is the swing that most MLB players utilize (see Pujols). There is no squishing the bug. In fact in many instances the back foot is heel up with the toe pointing straight down and sometimes the toe isn't even in contact with the ground at time of contact even though the batter's weight is back while the front leg is maybe not locked out but is certainly pushing backwards creating additional torso torque. Hands are palm up and palm down throughout the hitting zone portion of the swing with the bat barrel below the handle for the most part. In a rotational swing as I know it there is no throwing the hands or the knob of the bat at the ball as that removes all the leverage and does not allow the batter to carry the bat through the hitting zone nearly as well. The hand path would be somewhat elliptical starting in front of the rear shoulder and staying high and tight to the chest for the meatball strike (obviously low and away is going to take the hands somewhat lower and away and high and tight will be higher and tighter) The hands start to go elliptical after contact as they swing out towards the pitcher into full extension and then come back around for follow through.

I am a strong proponent of rotational mechanics and take considerable grief on the subject as well too bad we can no longer consult Ted Williams (even though Mike Epstein played for and coached under Ted if I recall)

There are certainly differences between the male and female bodies and I certainly do not pretend to know anywhere near as much about hitting as Hitter but to keep it simple for my girls we just stick to the plan as we know it. Great hitters take more years to develop than we have with the girls and every coach wants to put their fingerprint on a swing regardless of whether the girls hits lineal, rotational or anything in between and most swings I see are in-between for sure, but that's just a matter of time and proper practice before they find their groove. We all do the best we can and have to be true to ourselves. There are great hitters using every imaginable method and everything in-between. I believe in rotational or trans-rotational, I had never heard trans-rotational used before but you learn something everyday. Rotational just makes sense to me so I'm going with it as I have for several years. It's just what I believe is best. My opinion

Guess this is where the rest of the world usually piles on.

 

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What Epstein calls rotational mechanics actually involves some linearity. There is linearity in the forward movement as well as some linearity in the hand path. The "Power V" method is much more rotational. This is why Howard asked for someone to "explain rotational" in an earlier post. The term means different things to different people.

Len

 

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I guess I don't know exactly how my version slots into the jargon...my understanding of the Power V is that you are at full extension in synch with contact.

My understanding or thoughts regarding rotational is that the point in the swing where you come to full extension and have the "Power V" positioning with the arms is after the ball is off the bat and is part of the follow through. Point of contact has palm up / palm down and front elbow bent and up and rear elbow bent at contact and down towards the hip.

The swing I'm looking for has extension when the bat is probably 30-60 degrees of additional swing arc after the point of contact. Not sure I explained myself fully there. Arms are bent while the bat makes contact with the ball ideally in front of the thigh (let's assumed we are grooved thigh high on the pitch for this example) and then as we continue our follow thru the arms come to full extension (the power V as I know it) well after contact and the hands at this point are directionally somewhere between short and 2nd base in relation to the field with the bat pointing towards lc field to rc field. In the swing I am calling rotational your power is made with bent powerfully positioned arms leaving in my example a "follow thru V" as the power was applied some time before that position was ever achieved.

I think Epstein or any other rotational advocate would agree that the motion starts lineal with the footwork...the rotational monicker I think is based on the hand path and torso more than footwork. From what I've seen and heard most rotational instruction would throw the power V into linear as the arms are extending and the torso isn't generally torqued. I think the arm position is terribly important in differentiating linear and rotational and the power V could not be associated with rotational because you look like you are essentially "swinging with your arms" Just my take as a novice student of the game. I'm sure when every swing is broken down into 50 frames per second that better analysis can be done than I can try with a few words in a post. Again. Just my take on the whole rotational vs lineal thing

 

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Yes there are a lot of plans out there and you would have to find a way to measure or determine what works for you and the success of your students using it.

On the net there is an element that tries to explain things in a very complicated way that most coaches and parents could never understand it. We have tried to make it easy, see it, feel it and fix it. Then explain it in measurable and observable terms that reasonable people could agree upon to see if the hitter can feel the difference by testing the hitter.

Grip, balance and are you stronger with your head up or down can all be tested so they feel the difference. I have found this approach has worked well for my students and at clinics.

The Physics of Baseball by Robert K. Adair copyright 1994, breaks down the swing and gives good answers. It can also be as complicated as you want if you want the technical explanation.

I am not sure who coined the phrase rotational. The dictionary has rotational as motion in which the path of every point in the moving object is a circle or circular arc centered on a specified axis.

Translational motion of a body in which every point of the body moves parallel to and the same distance as every other point of the body.

You stated," The back elbow slots into the rib cage by the belt and front elbow pulls slightly up and towards the pitcher (as if you were going to elbow someone in the shoulder in the front of the batters box)."

I am not going into all the differences of male verses female however I will say a females shoulders are narrower and rounded and the male shoulders are wider. Considering the fact the chest cavity becomes thicker during puberty in preparation for the breast to come the females back elbow will actually rub or slow the swing down because of it depending on each girl. It is fairly simply to test for. Have a student pull on a thick rope or belt and go to connection/ slotting and ask her to pull forward. If the elbow is in too tight you and her will feel the difference. Repeat and have the elbow clear the chest and you will feel more power. Whatever the female feels makes a difference in their ability to duplicate it. So telling them to rub the ribcage does not work well for them in my opinion.

Hold a bat about 6 inches up the handle and slowly swing it and observe when the knob moves. When did it move linear, rotational and become elliptical? Most people think the bat pivots exactly at the knob verses where the bat head is and how it got on plane.

Not sure if he still teaches it however Mike use to take a ball on a string and swing it over his head to demonstrate rotational. He explained it like a tether ball played on the playgrounds.

Hold onto the string and throw the ball forward and it will become elliptical when it reaches the end of the rope.

Personally I like the way Don Slaught explains the swing however I have learned from a lot of sources over the years.

Thanks Howard

 

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Okay...apologies. Maybe I am not explaining myself properly

This is kinda what I am thinking and trying to put into words
cat vs mlb hitter - YouTube

Is this along the lines of what you are thinking Hitter? I think we are actually pretty close here, but I could be completely off base. This is the swing I am classifying as rotational and this is my target...let me know your thoughts. My undergrad degreee is in finance so that's my foundation of formal training...an obvious departure from physiology and kinetics...

 

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Yes it is close enough for me. I work with Crystl and use her as model for the elite female swing.

Where I have gained the most knowledge is working with her and her previous team mates and that is something you can not get out of a book or by watching video and feel lucky to have been able to do that.

When you have worked with both males and females the differences in balance becomes apparent and that effects their stride because they load a little differently as their glutes do not fire the ACL like a boys. A boys knee basically works like a hinge and the females works like ball joint.

When they learn how to land on a soft knee and allow the weight to shift their hitting gets even better in my opinion.

A lot of the male coaches try to get them to stand too tall and they are not balanced. The male spine is tilted more forward. Their center of gravity is lower and when they jump or land they can land as much as five times their body weight verses a male which could be two and a half times their body weight.

It has been a fun journey for me and no apologies are required as it is just sharing information.

Howard

 

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If you want to really learn the differences then read the sites, Hitting Illustrated, Baseball Debate, Baseball Fever, and Discuss Fastpitch. All have very Techinical discussions on this and other topics. I visit them all. Chris O' Leary is kind of beat up on many of these sites, but they are not for the faint of heart, you better have thick skin to post on them. The site I like to visit and one of the best in terms of understanding the swing is Bobby Tewksbarry. He has played the game , teaches and has his own school. There are many so called experts but many really don't teach. tewkshitting.com Is Bobby's site. He posts on most of the above baseball sites. Chris posts mostly on baseball debate. Both Chris and Bobby have visited Howard. Just my two cents no one really teaches a pure Rotational or a pure Lineral Swing. It's a Mixture.

 

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I can't believe Lenski and Howard are speaking the same language... must be part of the political fallout in our previous presidential election. No other way to explain it.

Just havin' fun guys! Don't need both of you two teaming up on me.

 

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Hmmmm.......look at Les trying to stir the pot!;&:lmao:

Les, you must be bored so I'm gonna help ya out a bit. Hey Howard, hip rotation starts after toe-touch and before heel plant!


Len

 

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Neither. It happens after we squish the bug as we take the knob of the bat to the ball!

At least that is what Les told me.

Howard

 

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very nice! A lil' chuckle from the boyz

 

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Huh.....Les told me that you take your hands to the ball while swinging the bat on a downward plane. That way you're at extension at point of contact and hitting the ball on the handle of the bat, all while you assure yourself a boat load of back spin on the ball which makes it very tough for the defense to field and secure.

Len

 

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Len....He believes in bat technology so much he has made it a requirement that all his parents have to buy new bats for their kids for Christmas to increase their batting averages.

Apparently Kavin, Les's mentor, told him this would absolutely work especially if the bats are orange and that hitting mechanics are totally over blown. Kavin was at some camp earlier this year in the South and it worked for them.

Howard

 

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Les did stay at a Holiday Inn.

 

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I also switched to Geico

 

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Did you know GEICO stands for Government Employee Insurance Company and is owned by Berkshire Hathaway (Warren Buffet)?

 

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yes... I work for a Berkshire Hathaway company...

 

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No wonder you switched to GEICO. Corporate discount...........

 

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yup, a darn good one too!