Scoring question

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I have been "teaching" our scorekeeper some of the finer details of scorekeeping, and something came up today in a friendly that I wasn't sure how to tell her to score. Runner on second, zero or one outs, fly ball to RF is caught, and thrown off target towards 3B while runner is retreating back to 2B. Can't remember who picked up the ball and got it to 3B, but runner is caught briefly in run-down. Unfortunately, we really haven't worked on run-downs yet, and runner eventually gets to 3B. How is the advancement from 2B to 3B scored?

 

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Without seeing it you first have a F9 on the batter/runner. Then it gets a little fuzzy but ultimately you have to award an error to someone because the runner advanced to third. The way you explain it, it wouldn't be on the RF as the runner was going back to second, unless after the errant throw the runner then advanced to 3B without anyone else making a play on the runner. But it sounds as if several other players touched the ball after the RF...so it is up to you to determine who's error allowed the runner to advance.

 

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Shane ... I don't know who I would charge an error to ... while the RF should not have thrown it to 3B in this situation and while her throw to 3B was offline, it was retrieved by 3B in time to get the runner in a run down between 2B and 3B. And the runner advanced to 3B as the result of our inability to effectively execute the rundown, but no one threw the ball away or dropped it.

 

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If the runner tagged up intially to go to third on the fly ball but decided not to try to advance, then tried to advance because the throw was offline, got caught in pickle, then ultimately got safely to third, then you score it no different than a successful tag up.

Len

 

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I'd have to agree with Lady Knights. There had to have been an error on someone in the run down to allow the runner to advance to 3rd....although nobody dropped the ball or made a bad throw, someone mistimed a throw to allow the advancement. You can usually tell which particular throw doomed the pickle play as soon as it's released.

 

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I'm like 70% sure that there is a FUBAR button on my iPad for those situations. Ok maybe 40%.......

 

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If you feel you need to charge an error in this situation then the error would go to the last defensive player to throw the ball unless the receiver dropped it on the tag IMHO. After-all, they were the last two with an opportunity to make the out.

 

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I guess the question is if an out is assumed on a pickle play. But in the case of a steal attempt where a pickle play results, I am pretty sure the runner gets credit for a steal if they successfully advance ... so I was actually leaning a little towards the sac fly that Lenski also made a case for. It doesn't matter as it was only a friendly and we aren't actually keeping the stats, just making a note that we need to work on pickle plays!

 

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From the NCAA website on Scoring Softball:

Error: A misplay charged to a defensive player when it is judged by the official scorer to have prolonged the time at bat (causes one or more pitches to be thrown) of an offensive player or contributed to an offensive player being declared safe.

Unless there was a misplay, then no error can be assigned according to this definition. There is no definition for a "mental" error that I could find. Also, how many times have we seen batters beat out a hit because a fielder didn't charge the play or make a throw as fast as we'd like - those are scored as a hit.

 

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Wookie ... agree with your note about "mental errors" ... these are not recorded as errors in the book ... I have had a difficult time getting some pitcher's parents (and even some coaches) to believe that one. Other examples ... balls that just drop untouched which no one made an effort for and/or which they assumed someone else would go for, balls just held by infielders or outfielders when they could have made a play, balls thrown to the wrong base, etc. The more I think about this one, the less I think there was any error.

 

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My scorekeeper would score that a CF. Modern military abbreviation similar to FUBAR.

 

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On the iPad or Gamechanger you have the option to 'advanced on the throw'. I would score it that way rather than awarding a stolen base or an error.

 

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Is advancing a base after tagging on a fly ball cosidered "stealing" a base as indicated by Coach_Dave? We have always given the batter credit for a sacrifice, but we have never given the runner credit for stealing a base.

 

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I wish someone would write a comprehensive book on scoring (if it already hasn't been done) and make it readily available to the public (because I certainly can't find one).

 

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http://nfca.org.ismmedia.com/ISM2/MultimediaManager/ATEC.pdf As comprehensive of a book as there is.

According to the guide, you would charge an error on the RF. Under "d" in the "errors" section, it states

d - An error is charged when an unnecessary throw allows a runner​

to advance.


I would have gotten it wrong off the top of my head, I was thinking advanced on a FC, but that never seemed right anyway.

 

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The ATEC scoring guide is pretty good ... don't have the link readily available. Rdsherman ... there is no SB on a sacrifice.

 

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ExxWhy ... that rule could be used, but the outfielder did have to get the ball in to the infield and chose to throw it to 3B. However, could that be used to record and error on 3B? Had she not made the throw to 2B creating the pickle, the runner would have retreated to that base ...

 

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I don't believe I indicated that at all.... You can only score it a sac fly if the runner scores. If the Girl advances from 2nd to 3rd, there should be no sacrifice awarded and it does count as an official at bat. The runner is never awarded a stolen base when the ball is put in play by the batter.

I doubt that 'advanced on throw' is the correct way to score the original situation in question. However, for the younger Girls, that is how I would score it. With iScore and Gamechanger, you have to select a reason for the Girl to advance.

 

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I wouldn't score an error on the RF because the runner retreated to second base after the throw. Therefore, the throw from RF was not the reason she advanced. As Coach Dave says, it's not a sac fly because the runner didn't score. Because the rundown was botched, I would probably score an error on someone involved in the rundown, whether it was a bad or late throw or a dropped throw that allowed the runner to get to third. If the runner was in a rundown and ended up safe, that pretty much has to be an error on someone I would think.

 

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I agree with JoeA1010, since the runner would not have advanced if on the play, an error must be charged on the play. I think the error is charged to the player who made the bad throw, or the one who dropped the ball in the run down that allowed the runner to advance from second to third.