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Doesn't seem right to me that she should get charged with the error as she did her part.
Doesn't seem right to me that she should get charged with the error as she did her part.
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I truly can not see charging the 3B player for doing her job in that situation or the 2B player for doing hers. Had I been scoring I would have charged the error to the catcher who should have been at the bag while the pitcher controlled home. Not sure it would be correct but that's how i would have scored it.
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Andrew ... I hear what you're saying and I agree, but I guess not much different than if there was a ground ball in the infield and no one covered 1B ... if the infielder throws it over there and no one is covering, then they get the error even though someone else actually made a mental error. And as you and I know, not everything in scoring is fair ... e.g., pop ups that should be caught and fielders let drop ... those are hits and potential earned runs to the pitcher, but then if a team makes an error with 2 outs, and the next 5 hitters all hit home runs, those are all unearned runs to the pitcher. Meanwhile catchers get putouts for all strikeouts, while an outfielder who makes a nice play on a base hit in the gap to save extra bases doesn't even get credit for a chance.
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I can not see issuing an error to the 3B player for correctly doing her job or the 2B or SS player for doing hers. Had I been scoring the game I would have issued an error to the catcher for not covering 3B and allowing the runner to advance. Without a runner on third, the catcher should be the 3B back up in that run down situation since she has the easiest unimpeded path to the bag while the pitcher controls the plate. I may be totally off base but, that's how I would have scored the play.
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Sorry for the double post! Just catching on here.
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Never heard of giving an error to someone for failing to cover a base ... and there's not only one way to cover that play so to pick out the player you think should have covered it and who was not even involved in the play is not correct.
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if the base wasn't gained by a dropped ball in the pickle then I am inclined to grant the base "on the throw" with no error anywhere.
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It is difficult to award an error to a fielder for failing to cover a bag, because there are different coaching philosophies as to who covers what bag. For all we know, it could have been the Left Fielder's responsibility to cover 3b.
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Agreed.... Scoring on those types of plays ****.
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Here is the issue I have.
If the 3rd basemen had just held onto the ball the runner does not advance. So no way you can give an error to the RF. The error was in the execution of the pickle. Obviously, the girls who did not run the base runner back to second gets the error or you credit the player that threw too late to 3rd. Those are the 2 that get the error. Once the 3rd basemen threw the ball towards 2nd the RF was off the hook IMO.
Let me ask you this. If the RF had thrown to 2nd and the runner had touched and taken a few steps off and gotten in a pickle. And there was 5 -6 throws in the pickle. Would you give the RF the assist? The answer is no.
If the 3rd basemen had just held onto the ball the runner does not advance. So no way you can give an error to the RF. The error was in the execution of the pickle. Obviously, the girls who did not run the base runner back to second gets the error or you credit the player that threw too late to 3rd. Those are the 2 that get the error. Once the 3rd basemen threw the ball towards 2nd the RF was off the hook IMO.
Let me ask you this. If the RF had thrown to 2nd and the runner had touched and taken a few steps off and gotten in a pickle. And there was 5 -6 throws in the pickle. Would you give the RF the assist? The answer is no.
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Ok, here I go with my stab at this.
First, did the runner complete a legal tag-up? Was she standing on 2nd base when the ball was first touched by the RF? Kind of sounds like no if she was retreating to the bag already but since there is no mention of an appeal, she might have tagged-up legally.
But let's assume that she did tag-up legally. Cannot score a SF because the runner did not score.
Any attempt to advance a base when the ball is in play unaided by a safe hit, putout, error, force out, fielder's choice, illegal pitch, base on balls, hit batter, wildpitch, passed ball, interference or obstruction is, by definition, a Stolen Base unless the defense showed "Indifference", then it would be a Fielder's Choice.
Now, I do not have access to my scoring references here at work so if I am way off-base (pun intended) here, then tag me OUT.
First, did the runner complete a legal tag-up? Was she standing on 2nd base when the ball was first touched by the RF? Kind of sounds like no if she was retreating to the bag already but since there is no mention of an appeal, she might have tagged-up legally.
But let's assume that she did tag-up legally. Cannot score a SF because the runner did not score.
Any attempt to advance a base when the ball is in play unaided by a safe hit, putout, error, force out, fielder's choice, illegal pitch, base on balls, hit batter, wildpitch, passed ball, interference or obstruction is, by definition, a Stolen Base unless the defense showed "Indifference", then it would be a Fielder's Choice.
Now, I do not have access to my scoring references here at work so if I am way off-base (pun intended) here, then tag me OUT.
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Point Taken coachjwb and Coach_Dave and I stand corrected but if I were to agree with anyone it would be Sue99. If a ball wasn't dropped or an errant throw wasn't present then perhaps no one should get the error. If no one covers 2nd on a steal its considered indifference correct? Would there be an error if while in the rundown a good throw was made and the base runner made an exceptional slide to be called safe? This may be one of those issues that does not have a definitive answer.
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I agree with this, along with some of the other posts made recently. But I need to think about this a little more. I don't think there is such a thing as a "Team Defense Error" is there? There is a Team Earned Run for a runner who starts on second base in the ITB. If there isn't a team defense error, is it a SB like Bill mentions above? I'm not sure I knew there could be a stolen base after a batted ball.
I'm going to figure out this answer, or at least be convinced that someone here has it nailed.
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Question. I thought of this while reading Luvof games post. No one covering sencond on steal being defensive indefference? Is this the correct call for fastpitch or should it still be a stolen base? I know in MLB they changed several years back, calling it defensive indifference, but that is only when game score is not a factor etc? When fastpitch is in 1st and third situation and runner takes second without a throw, is this still a stolen base?? My question is does defensive indifference apply to fastpitch as it does in MLB. Im of the opinion that it does not and although not positive on this, I think even in MLB with 1st and 3rd and the runner takes 2nd, it is considered a steal, even without throw.
Sorry to Hijack, but seems we were still waiting on that prfessional ruling of pickels so how bout another area of question that arose?
Sorry to Hijack, but seems we were still waiting on that prfessional ruling of pickels so how bout another area of question that arose?
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Crush ... if I remember right, pretty sure on the uncovered steal attempt that it depends on the sanctioning body ... i.e., college vs. HS vs. ASA, etc. I decided a couple of years back that I was just going to credit the runner with a steal.
Joe, I was kidding about the team error thing ... nothing like that as far as I know. And I don't think you can have an SB if it's a batted ball either. So it's either an error on the throw where 3B was left uncovered, or just nothing (i.e., advance on the throw). It was never an error on the RF in my mind since the ball was retrieved at 3B well before the runner got there. And no way you can arbitrarily give an error to someone who was "supposed to" cover the base. If I believe the Wikipedia baseball reference, I end up with error on 3B.
Joe, I was kidding about the team error thing ... nothing like that as far as I know. And I don't think you can have an SB if it's a batted ball either. So it's either an error on the throw where 3B was left uncovered, or just nothing (i.e., advance on the throw). It was never an error on the RF in my mind since the ball was retrieved at 3B well before the runner got there. And no way you can arbitrarily give an error to someone who was "supposed to" cover the base. If I believe the Wikipedia baseball reference, I end up with error on 3B.
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coachjwb:
Yes, I knew you were kidding on the team error, but I swear I think I have heard of that, although maybe in baseball. I think I have also heard of an error being charged when, say, a first baseman forgot to cover the bag, for example.
On the defensive indifference, yes, it depends on the sanctioning body. The NCAA changed its rules on this a year or two ago, so there should be fewer stolen bases in softball. Most of those first-third giveaways should no longer be credited as SBs, although many schools still do so.
Yes, I knew you were kidding on the team error, but I swear I think I have heard of that, although maybe in baseball. I think I have also heard of an error being charged when, say, a first baseman forgot to cover the bag, for example.
On the defensive indifference, yes, it depends on the sanctioning body. The NCAA changed its rules on this a year or two ago, so there should be fewer stolen bases in softball. Most of those first-third giveaways should no longer be credited as SBs, although many schools still do so.
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Been following along and just would like to weigh-in briefly. First as a scorekeeper I would have to issue an error to the 3rd baseperson or whomever was the first to touch the ball and attempt to force the runner back to second. Had she ran her all the way back without a throw there would have been no advance. This is regardless of good throws and catches. However, as a coach I would issue the "unrecorded" error to the player whose responsibility it was to cover the base that was left unattended and use it as a teaching point for both players at that the end of that inning and the next practice.
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Joe ... I know in basketball I have seen a stat called team rebounds. Team errors would actually be an interesting stat to keep ... cover all those times when someone didn't cover a base, let a ball drop between 2 fielders, etc. ... and pitchers' parents would love it!!!!
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Joe ... I know in basketball I have seen a stat called team rebounds. Team errors would actually be an interesting stat to keep ... cover all those times when someone didn't cover a base, let a ball drop between 2 fielders, etc. ... and pitchers' parents would love it!!!!
Pitchers ERAs would go down to 0.000.
I watched a pitcher throw a 60 mile an hour drop ball in the dirt hitting in the batters box on the side of the "hole" and a run scored. Parent looked at me and swore saying that was a passed ball and that what the heck is the catcher good for if she can not block that........walked away slowly......
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