Scoring this hit? Double or Triple?

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OK, how would you score this hit. A batter hits a solid double, she arrives at second without a slide and is held there by the third base coach. The batter sees the ball thrown into the girl playing second who holds the ball and does not throw it back to the pitcher. The runner/batter sees that this player is not fully paying attention and there is no one covering third so she advances to third base. The ball was never in the circle so the play was never completed. My question is, do we score this as a tripple? She technically did not steal the base since the play was not done, there was not fielding error just a mental error on the part of the girls holding the ball not paying attention. Any input is apprecaited. We are not that hung up on stats, but it was an interesting conversation after tha game on how to score it.

 

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2B and FC

 

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How would you score it if she got tagged out going to 3? You stated she stopped @ 2 so most would be a double and the rest is up to you either, FC like wvanalmsick said or SB, almost like a delayed steal

 

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Or I might be inclined to score it as advancing on throw. As all the suggestions to date indicate, it would not result in a triple.

 

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Double and FC, or maybe just a double and advancing on the throw.

 

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In my ESPN iscore there is an option called "Defensive Indifference". Seems applicable for this. Double with advancement to 3B due to "defensive indifference".

This option is also nice in that runners aren't credited with a stolen base when they take 2nd with a runner on 3rd less with than two outs.

 

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Advancing on the throw and defensive indifference are both recorded as FC.

 

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I disagree on the DI. That implies that the defense strategically allowed her to have the base.

I would likely score it a stolen base, possibly an error on the player I felt most responsible for allowing her to take the base. (probably the third baseman for not covering).

 

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This is definitley a double, but by knowing your runner you could score it as a FC or a delayed steal. This of course would depend on knowing the runner and actually seeing the play in progress. Did it look planned from the beginning or was it a third base coach yelling "here"?

The easiest way to to it would just be a double with an FC. IMO

 

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I disagree on the DI. That implies that the defense strategically allowed her to have the base.

I would likely score it a stolen base, possibly an error on the player I felt most responsible for allowing her to take the base. (probably the third baseman for not covering).

You can't charge errors for mental errors, failing to make a play quick enough or not covering a base. The closest thing to a mental error that you can charge is an unnecessary throw.

 

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This option is also nice in that runners aren't credited with a stolen base when they take 2nd with a runner on 3rd less with than two outs.

Why take away the stolen base? Just because the defense decided not to throw down?
Are you going to take away the stolen base too if there happens to be a wild pitch or passed ball when the runner is stealing before the pitch reaches the batter?

I give our girls stolen bases when they break on the pitch. If they wait to see if the catcher catches it or not, I rule it a passed ball or wild pitch. The only exception is the delayed steal or the draw throw and then steal call.

 

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Why take away the stolen base? Just because the defense decided not to throw down?

Because that's the way the ATEC Scoring Manual instructs scorekeepers to score that play.

Are you going to take away the stolen base too if there happens to be a wild pitch or passed ball when the runner is stealing before the pitch reaches the batter?

I give our girls stolen bases when they break on the pitch. If they wait to see if the catcher catches it or not, I rule it a passed ball or wild pitch. The only exception is the delayed steal or the draw throw and then steal call.

The ATEC Manual also supports your last paragraph.

http://nfca.org.ismmedia.com/ISM2/MultimediaManager/ATEC.pdf

 

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I'd go with stolen base due to the inattention of the defense. ATEC allows stolen bases to be recorded immediately after a walk, so they should be allowed before the next pitch after a hit.

3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the advance was made immediately after rounding on a walk,

 

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I'd go with stolen base due to the inattention of the defense. ATEC allows stolen bases to be recorded immediately after a walk, so they should be allowed before the next pitch after a hit.

3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the advance was made immediately after rounding on a walk,

This was not a first and third steal. That whole paragraph pertains just to the first and third steal situation.

 

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I'd go with stolen base due to the inattention of the defense. ATEC allows stolen bases to be recorded immediately after a walk, so they should be allowed before the next pitch after a hit.

3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the advance was made immediately after rounding on a walk,

This was not a first and third steal. That whole paragraph pertains just to the first and third steal situation.

I didn't say the whole paragraph was applicable - I was just usiing the fact a stolen base can be credited to a runner that wasn't on base at the time of the pitch to justify being able to credit a stolen base after a hit without another pitch being thrown. That paragraph also defines indifference.

Credit a stolen base to a runner who advances a base unaided by a safe hit, putout, error, force out, fielder's choice, illegal pitch, base on balls, hit batter, wild pitch, passed ball, interference or obstruction.

 

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okey doke. I'm following you now.

 

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Because that's the way the ATEC Scoring Manual instructs scorekeepers to score that play.


I disagree with you. The manual states this :
2) In a first and third double steal credit the runner
advancing to second with a fielder's choice if the initial
throw is to anywhere but second base.
3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner
advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw
is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided
score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the
advance was made immediately after rounding on a
walk,

The only way it is not a stolen base is if the score is lopsided and no throw is made (DI) or the throw is made to anywhere but second (FC). Other than that it is a stolen base. No where in the Stolen Base section does it mention anything about how many out there are.

Back to the topic-
A stolen bases is defined as:
Credit a stolen base to a runner who advances a base unaided by a safe hit,
putout, error, force out, fielder's choice, illegal pitch, base on balls, hit batter, wild pitch, passed ball, interference or obstruction.

Since there is no mention of after a pitch was released or anything of that nature in the definition, Score the play a double and a stolen base.

As you may recall in the College World Series, nobody on and the batter is walked. The pitcher received the ball and walked outside the circle in the back. The runner being alert seen no one was covering second and the pitcher wasn't paying attention so she took off for second and was in safely. That play was scored as a walk and a stolen base.
Same thing here. The ball was hit for a double and the runner stopped at second. She made the decision to go to third as a result of no one covering and the second baseman not paying attention.

 

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Because that's the way the ATEC Scoring Manual instructs scorekeepers to score that play.


I disagree with you. The manual states this :
2) In a first and third double steal credit the runner
advancing to second with a fielder's choice if the initial
throw is to anywhere but second base.
3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner
advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw
is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided
score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the
advance was made immediately after rounding on a
walk,

The only way it is not a stolen base is if the score is lopsided and no throw is made (DI) or the throw is made to anywhere but second (FC). Other than that it is a stolen base. No where in the Stolen Base section does it mention anything about how many out there are.

You must look at the entire section that sub-paragraph 2) & 3) is referring to. Sub-paragraph b talks about Double and Triple steals.

b - When any runner is thrown out on an attempted double or triple steal, no runner will be credited with a stolen base.

1) On a double steal attempt in a first and third situation where an unsuccessful but legitimate effort is made to put out the runner stealing second base, credit a stolen base even if the runner on third is thrown out at home on a continuous play.

2) In a first and third double steal credit the runner advancing to second with a fielder's choice if the initial throw is to anywhere but second base.

3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the advance was made immediately after rounding on a walk,

4) On double or triple steal attempts, if a runner is successful when played upon, all others who advance are also scored as having successfully stolen a base.

You can only do this if there is a DOUBLE STEAL. If the runner on third doesn't go anywhere then there is no DOUBLE STEAL. The runner going to second doesn't get credit for a stolen base if there is no throw.

This is probably one of those things that we will agree to disagree. Each time I read the ATEC I see a different perspective of why they wrote a paragraph a certain way. That's just the way that I interpet it. Someone else can interpet a different way. I'm not going to fall on my sword over it. In the softball world, stats are nice but they really don't get a girl anywhere. Talent is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

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As you may recall in the College World Series, nobody on and the batter is walked. The pitcher received the ball and walked outside the circle in the back. The runner being alert seen no one was covering second and the pitcher wasn't paying attention so she took off for second and was in safely. That play was scored as a walk and a stolen base.
Same thing here. The ball was hit for a double and the runner stopped at second. She made the decision to go to third as a result of no one covering and the second baseman not paying attention.

I disagree with the "same thing here" statement. The ball in the CWS was returned to the pitcher and essentially a deadball until she walked out of the circle. In this case the batter/runner was still advancing on her intial hit that started the play and not on a subsequent play.

If the runner was thrown out, how would you have scored it? PO or CS? If it was a put out you have just taken away a 2b if it was CS, how can you give a 2b and a CS on the same play?

 

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You must look at the entire section that sub-paragraph 2) & 3) is referring to. Sub-paragraph b talks about Double and Triple steals.



You can only do this if there is a DOUBLE STEAL. If the runner on third doesn't go anywhere then there is no DOUBLE STEAL. The runner going to second doesn't get credit for a stolen base if there is no throw.

This is probably one of those things that we will agree to disagree

OK. Take the double steal out of the equation. It then becomes a straight steal of second.
Where in the scoring rules does it state that with a runners on first and third and less than two outs, the runner advancing to second after a walk or thrown pitch is not credited with a stolen base? I can't find it.
Are you going to rule Defense Indifference or Fielders Choice if there is only a runner on first an no attempt is made on the runner?
The only part of the Stolen Base rule that comes into play is this:
g - Do not credit a stolen base to a runner who advances because of defensive indifference; score a fielder's choice. (See noted exception for first and third situation above).
The question now becomes what is defensive indifference? To me the defense is not indifferent. They are making a choice. Allowing the runner to safely steal second as to prevent any possibility of the runner on third from scoring.
Defensive indifference has no definition in the manual thus it is up to interpretation.