Scoring this hit? Double or Triple?

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I disagree with the "same thing here" statement. The ball in the CWS was returned to the pitcher and essentially a deadball until she walked out of the circle. In this case the batter/runner was still advancing on her intial hit that started the play and not on a subsequent play.

If the runner was thrown out, how would you have scored it? PO or CS? If it was a put out you have just taken away a 2b if it was CS, how can you give a 2b and a CS on the same play?

If the runner was thrown out, then yes it would be a caught stealing and a Double. If the runner in the CWS was thrown out, it would have been a walk with a caught stealing. Both examples are of runners advancing during live ball situations.
Why would you take away the double? The put out was at third.
You don't take away a single away from a girl that is thrown out at second trying to stretch that single into a double?

 

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This is probably one of those things that we will agree to disagree. Each time I read the ATEC I see a different perspective of why they wrote a paragraph a certain way. That's just the way that I interpet it. Someone else can interpet a different way. I'm not going to fall on my sword over it. In the softball world, stats are nice but they really don't get a girl anywhere. Talent is in the eyes of the beholder.

Seems to me that this is a gray area in the rules and subject to interpretation. I see it one way. You see it another. And somebody else sees it another way. Such is life.

 

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You must look at the entire section that sub-paragraph 2) & 3) is referring to. Sub-paragraph b talks about Double and Triple steals.

You can only do this if there is a DOUBLE STEAL. If the runner on third doesn't go anywhere then there is no DOUBLE STEAL. The runner going to second doesn't get credit for a stolen base if there is no throw.

Interesting point, but how far does the runner on third have to go to make it a double steal? I doubt #3 requires they steal home.

3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the advance was made immediately after rounding on a walk,

 

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Interesting point, but how far does the runner on third have to go to make it a double steal? I doubt #3 requires they steal home.

3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the advance was made immediately after rounding on a walk,

All this is subject to interpretation and which position does the scorer's DD play

Talk to a Pitcher's Dad and a Catcher's Dad and you will get two different definitions of a wild pitch or a passed ball.
What the heck is Ordinary Effort?

 

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I disagree on the DI. That implies that the defense strategically allowed her to have the base.

I would likely score it a stolen base, possibly an error on the player I felt most responsible for allowing her to take the base. (probably the third baseman for not covering).

I agree. it should be a double with an error on the 2nd baseman for not getting ball in or 3rd baseman for not covering bag.

 

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Mental errors (e.g., not covering a bag or not getting the ball in) don't count as errors.

 

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They do in my book.....

 

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They do in my book.....

My book also

 

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My book also

What do you know. You can't even get out of the way of the first baseman on a pop up in foul territory. :yahoo: :lmao:

 

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My book also

Must be a couple of pitcher's dads! ;&

 

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Must be a couple of pitcher's dads! ;&

No, being a pitcher's dad is way too stressful. Lol. I'm an infielder's dad. If she held the ball and allowed a runner to advance, I'd give her an error all day. To me that's the same as a bad throw. Sorry if that seems harsh.

 

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Hey, I agree that those mental errors are much worse than the physical ones ... it's just that if there's any chance of statistics being meaningful, we need to do them all the same way as much as possible. If you count mental errors as physical errors, then your pitchers don't get charged with earned runs ... and I AM a pitcher's dad!

P.S. I know my DD would agree with you and disagree with me on this one too!

 

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I am with Coachjwb on this. There are rules for scoring and once a team doesn't follow those rules, all we have in terms of statistics that can be compared is anarchy. Yes, I know that college coaches don't look at TB statistics much, but to simply ignore the scoring rules doesn't give college coaches much reason to start looking at those stats.

 

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It states right in the definition of an error:
h - A mental error is not recorded as an error.

So if you record a mental error as an error you are not following the rules of the game and the stats you are producing are inaccurate.

Just like the example that started this thread. The correct scoring is a double and a stolen base. The stolen base appears in the catchers stats (Yes I'm a catcher's Dad) and it goes against the catcher. Is it right to charge the catcher with a stolen base attempt? NO, but they get it.

 

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I agree with you CGS, score keepers should do their best to educate themselves on proper scoring guidelines. If it were my job to keep stats, I would want to do it as accurately as possible..........

With that said, my job is to Prepare these young ladies and to eliminate plays like the one in the example. I want to know the areas that we need to improve. I use the stats to map our progress and to try to find trends.

While it may make someone happy to know that they didn't get credited an error, it won't impress me if a player holds the ball while runners are taking bases.

 

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If the runner was thrown out, then yes it would be a caught stealing and a Double. If the runner in the CWS was thrown out, it would have been a walk with a caught stealing. Both examples are of runners advancing during live ball situations.
Why would you take away the double? The put out was at third.
You don't take away a single away from a girl that is thrown out at second trying to stretch that single into a double?

Neither example would qualify as a steal situation according to ATEC (well maybe the walk but that is open to interpretation). The first one would simply be a PO and the batter credited with a 2b or if she reached 3rd safely without the throw it would be 2b and indifference. As discussed there is no error charged for mental or not making the throw. Now if the batter had not stopped or hesitated at 2nd, she could be credited with the 3b. IMHO

 

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Wow, thanks for all the great responses. Our stats are pretty much just kept among the coaches. We will share individual stats with parents who request them, but only that of their DD. Being that I admire the girl that took the extra base as much as I do, I just wanted to credit her properly. She always has a way of making things happen on the base path. I keep telling her she needs to move to our town and play for our HS, too bad she is pretty set where she is at. This is a great kid with great parents.

 

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I was watching the Virginia college world series baseball game last evening, and there was a looping fly hit to shallow left center. The center fielder tried aggressively to run it down, but didn't get there in time and missed on a one hop attempt. The ball rolled to the 400+ foot fence behind him. The result was an inside-the-park home run.

The ruling for scoring purposes was that since the fielder did not touch the ball, it was not an error. It was a HUGE mental error. Poor judgement not realizing that if that play is missed (like it was) the fence is a LONG way back - and there's no getting the ball in time. For this level of ball, it was a poor choice trying to "scoop n throw" when just stopping the ball any way possible would probably have held the runner to a double. When was the last time you saw an inside the parker with a fence?

 

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Neither example would qualify as a steal situation according to ATEC (well maybe the walk but that is open to interpretation). The first one would simply be a PO and the batter credited with a 2b or if she reached 3rd safely without the throw it would be 2b and indifference. As discussed there is no error charged for mental or not making the throw. Now if the batter had not stopped or hesitated at 2nd, she could be credited with the 3b. IMHO

Just curious how in world could you ever score it as indifference? Are you saying because the defense messed up and didn't throw the ball it is indifference? Doesn't indifference imply the defense doesn't care if the runner advances? With no other runners on base I am sure the defense did care if she advanced.

 

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Just curious how in world could you ever score it as indifference? Are you saying because the defense messed up and didn't throw the ball it is indifference? Doesn't indifference imply the defense doesn't care if the runner advances? With no other runners on base I am sure the defense did care if she advanced.

There is no definition of defense indifference so people use it wherever they see fit. It is subject to interpretation. I think most people use it incorrectly,but that is just my .02.