Stealing 2nd on a walk?

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When a player attempts to steal 2nd on a walk do they have to keep going once a fielder has the ball at 2nd or can they then go back to 1st? How does the rule work?

 

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What the runner can or can't do is covered by the Look Back Rule.

In a nutshell, if the pitcher has the ball within the 16 foot diameter pitching circle and is neither making a play or faking one, once the batter-runner rounds first base she may:

- Continue directly to second base.

- Stop between first and second ONE TIME, then immediately either go directly to second or first base.

- If the runner stops a second time, or changes direction a second time, she is out. The ball is dead and any other runners must return to their last base.

In your example, if the fielder had the ball at second, the pitcher obviously did not have the ball in the pitching circle. In that case, the Look Back Rule is not in effect. The runner can stop, fake, reverse or dance around all she wants to.

 

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Hey B-Man, when does the look back rule for other baserunners really go into effect? When the ball is returned to the pitcher or when the batter/runner finally reaches first base on a walk.

 

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Not until the batter-runner reaches first.

 

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This can get overboard with what if's, but .... assuming the best way for a pitcher to settle this all down is to simply stand in the circle with the ball for a second to force the runners to make a decision on what they are doing?

If the pitcher "gestures" aggressively (fake throw, body movement, etc.) while in that circle then it becomes "game on" correct? Let the dancing begin?

Let's say that the pitcher gestures aggressively, and we have "game on" but runner is just simply annoying the pitcher with the pitcher "annoying" the runner back ..... after a few jukes, toungue sticking out, spitting & curse words, .... can the pitcher just simply shut that all down again by just holding the ball in the circle again? What if she looks back the runner on 1B properly forcing her to decide to go back but the runner on 3B is doing back handsprings halfway home? Is it looking back specific runners, or just being in the circle with the ball for a second?

So - What is the best way for a pitcher to "use the rules",and to control multiple obnoxious base runners?

 

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Whenever the Look Back Rule is in effect (ie: batter-runner has reached first base, pitcher has ball in circle and is not making/faking a play) it is equally in effect for ALL runners.

When the pitcher makes a play (a throw or runs out of the circle), the Look Back Rule is obviously NOT in effect, as one of its requirements is no longer being met. The runners are free to advance, stop, reverse, etc. as they please.

If the pitcher fakes a play (raises arm as if to throw, or takes several steps toward a runner as if intending to exit the circle) the LBR is temprarily suspended. Once the pitcher stops her fake, the LBR goes back into effect. The umpire should give the runners an extra moment or two to allow them to react to the fake until it is apparent that the fake has ended and the LBR is back in effect.

From a strategic standpoint, the best strategy for the defense is usually to fire the ball back to the pitcher as quickly as possible, thus triggering the LBR and forcing the runners to make a decision to go one way or the other.

 

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The old "continuing to second base" on a walk goes away at the higher levels with experienced players. Every pitcher/catcher knows how to handle it - especially with runners on second or third. Coaches can use the old bait play, but experienced teams drill this often, and more often than not, the lead runner gets thrown out with the walked player on second base.

 

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I just wanted to clarify to some of those coaches that the kid is allowed to retreat and dont have to just give up once a play is made.

 

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What constitutes a play by the pitcher? Some umpires will tell you the pitcher having the ball in her throwing hand watching the runner rounding 1st eliminates the look back rule. Some will say she has to have her hand up ready to throw while others will tell you she has to fake pump for it to be a play on the runner. To me any pitcher that has the ball in her throwing hand and the arm moves should be considered an attempt. That alone can make the runner hesitate or break her stride. All too often though you have umpires that will call a runner out for stopping once because they ump in USSSA and ASA and get the rule confused. Bretman can probably tell us for sure. Isn`t the rule different in USSSA that the runner can not stop once if she rounds first and ASA you can?

 

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I just wanted to clarify to some of those coaches that the kid is allowed to retreat and dont have to just give up once a play is made.

Once the pitcher makes a gesture or play on the runner, then the Look-Back rule is off.

 

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The USSSA rule looks identical to the high school/ASA rule, going by their on-line rule book. The 2009 rule book does have the part about "stopping one time" highlighted, which usually indicates some sort of change has been made to the rule. However, this isn't listed under the rule changes for this year. I can only assume (since I do not work USSSA games) that the actual rule has not been changed, rather an editorial change has been made to emphasize how the rule should have been called all along.

There isn't any list of things that constitute a "fake play" in any rule book that I'm aware of, other than the notation that a "fake throw" can be considered as "a play". In this respect, the "fake" is largely up to the umpire's discretion and judgment.

Generally, anything that could reasonably cause a runner to react as if a play were being made, or an action by the pitcher that could potentially result in an out, could be considered as "a play".

Just holding the ball in the bare hand, with the arm down to the side, is not something I would consider "a play". Raising the arm to simulate any type of throwing motion, or holding the arm in a position from which a throw could be made, would be. Obviously, pumping the arm would be faking a play.

Simply looking at or watching the runner, with no throwing motion or movement toward the runner, I would call "no play". Taking steps toward the runner, as if preparing to exit the pitching circle I would consider as "making a play".

 

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Ok everyone start collecting Bret's water bottles so we can get the DNA cloned and have great umps each weekend

 

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What's the accepted method for discouraging the offense to steal second? (Other than telling the pitcher not to walk anybody -- good luck with that since all of our pitchers are rookies this year.) Should the ss immediately cover 2nd on a walk? Should the pitcher just hold the ball in the circle? What works best? In my case the team is a 12U rec league variety with talent, but not very well-schooled by previous coaches.

 

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Philbob try this. Batter walked and runner on third. Catcher immediately throws ball back to pitcher. Pitcher has ball in her throwing hand standing facing the coach in either dug out your team may be in. She is also set up in the circle closest to the second base line. Second base player who has to have a strong arm and schooled in Kobata defensive techniques lines herself up with the pitcher a step behind the baseline. As the runner rounds first you the coach are judging her speed and nod to your pitcher to turn and throw the ball to the second base player just as the runner would be coming close to her. If timed right as she steps with her glove hand and foot to receive ball she can immediately tag the runner and still make a good throw to the catcher who is set up for the tag @ home. Sometimes the runner will even go way out of the base line to avoid the tag and be called out for that with out being tagged. This will work one time if executed properly and if successful may be enough to make the opposing coaches apprehensive sending a runner a second time.

 

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Philbob try this. Batter walked and runner on third. Catcher immediately throws ball back to pitcher. Pitcher has ball in her throwing hand standing facing the coach in either dug out your team may be in. She is also set up in the circle closest to the second base line. Second base player who has to have a strong arm and schooled in Kobata defensive techniques lines herself up with the pitcher a step behind the baseline. As the runner rounds first you the coach are judging her speed and nod to your pitcher to turn and throw the ball to the second base player just as the runner would be coming close to her. If timed right as she steps with her glove hand and foot to receive ball she can immediately tag the runner and still make a good throw to the catcher who is set up for the tag @ home. Sometimes the runner will even go way out of the base line to avoid the tag and be called out for that with out being tagged. This will work one time if executed properly and if successful may be enough to make the opposing coaches apprehensive sending a runner a second time.

We do this very thing but our pitchers watch the runner and time it themself. In 3 years we recorded 11 double plays, 3 outs on batter runner with the girl at 3rd never moving and one where the ball sailed into right field. I will take those odds any day... The play works great

 

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Or the 2nd baseman can be called for obstruction by being in the basepath without the ball. It is not a batted ball fielding play, it is a thrown ball fielding play. If my runner is anywhere close to a fielder trying to do this, there will be contact between the runner and fielder.

The objective of the play is to get the runner from third base home. A properly coached batter/runner is wanting the pitcher to throw the ball to the SS or 2nd baseman or even for the pitcher to run at her. The batter/runner will then get herself in a rundown, hoping to distract the fielders long enough for the runner on 3rd base to scamper home.

If you are just wanting to get the runner to 2nd base, your odds are much better to just steal the base during the ensuing at-bat.

 

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wnanalmsick: That is exactly what we want our runner going to second to do. We have them walk if needed to get them to throw for the run down. We never get caught by the second base on the throw. Johnnies's teams are a master at it.

 

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We run our play almost the exact same way. It almost always works and only has to be done once because teams will not try it twice. When more experienced teams play, it is not a great offensive stratagy. It is really too easy to defend against. Better to get a first and third situation and set up a play off of that.

 

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Parma glad to see you also have had success with that play. We have never been called for obstruction on that play since most players natural reaction is to hesitate. The second base player is never in the base line until having the ball. The main objective for me is to entice the runner @ third to break for home. What some are forgetting is if the pitcher stands in the circle motionless when the batter runner touches first the runner on third has to either go back to third which is usually the case or advance to home. Usually if there is a second senerio like this in the same game. I have the same set up but when the runner rounds first the pitcher does a excellent fake throw which most times gets the runner on third to break for home and is either tagged out or @ the very least is pushed back to third. Either way it does most of the time keep the opposition from thinking about making further aggressive attempts.

 

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How close to first is the second baseman? We worked on this in practice with the 2B about 15 feet off of the bag (or maybe a little closer), throwing if the runner turned. But, it seemed that the runner made it past the 2B. I felt like closer to second was giving the 2B too long a throw... those of you who do this don't feel it is too long? (No, I didn't practice this at a further length.) What about throwing directly to the 1B? I realize the ball is out of the circle and as soon as the 1B throws to the pitcher the game is on again.
Are there any variables when practicing this to consider other than practicing with the players mentioned above?