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Lets vote on it. 
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In the above picture, I understand this to be what ASA considers the "strikezone."
What I wonder is, why is a ball to the side and bottom, outside the strike zone considered a strike, when a ball outside at the top would be considered a ball? Why should it not be everything all the way around called a strike? :-?
What I wonder is, why is a ball to the side and bottom, outside the strike zone considered a strike, when a ball outside at the top would be considered a ball? Why should it not be everything all the way around called a strike? :-?
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chicoflip said:
We all would be tickled pink, except for the hitters. I very rarely see an umpire call a strike that high. Also, this is a different subject, but WHY can't most umpires call a change-up, especially at the younger ages. It seems to fool them as much as the batters.
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Umpires are human, and prone to mistakes, (except for Bretman, ofcourse). I've seen umpires (rarely) with a strike zone of anything above the waste to the bottom of the chin. A pitchers nightmare and a hitters delight. But most, from my experience call a low zone, as low as shoe laces. Pitchers and batters need to adjust. When you come across that good umpire, which I believe are most, don't bash them over a borderline strike, but lavish them with praise because lets face it, their job isn't the easiest or for that matter the most desirable.
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Howard - In looking at the pic of the zone that Bear posted, how do you teach hitting the low inside pitch? It seems as though tilt will pretty much align the shoulders with every other location, combined with getting rotated through sooner for the high/inside. But the low/inside looks tough to reach with a good connected swing. Is a somewhat disconnected swing needed to get there, or do you suggest some other method?
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I've seen that same diagram with only a "dinnerplate" used. It fell out of an umpire's pocket at ASA States last year when he was looking for his glasses... after we lost of course. - JK bretman
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Even some guy named "Williams" had a problem with those low inside pitches...and I understand he was a fairly decent hitter.
Remember this picture from his "Science of Hitting" book? It is the strike zone, as viewed from the batter's perspective looking toward the pitcher, and what Williams estimated he would hit if balls were pitched to each location. As a left-handed hitter, the low inside ones seemed to give him the most trouble.
Besides using lots of torso tilt, the best strategy (early in the count) might be to just let those go!
That is probably one of the reasons a pitcher can be so successful with those borderline pitches, especially the ones that are borderline in two dimensions- up and out, up and in, down and out, down and in. Those locations force a hitter make adjustments that can lead to disconnection in the swing. A good thing for the pitcher, not so good for the hitter!
Remember this picture from his "Science of Hitting" book? It is the strike zone, as viewed from the batter's perspective looking toward the pitcher, and what Williams estimated he would hit if balls were pitched to each location. As a left-handed hitter, the low inside ones seemed to give him the most trouble.
Besides using lots of torso tilt, the best strategy (early in the count) might be to just let those go!
That is probably one of the reasons a pitcher can be so successful with those borderline pitches, especially the ones that are borderline in two dimensions- up and out, up and in, down and out, down and in. Those locations force a hitter make adjustments that can lead to disconnection in the swing. A good thing for the pitcher, not so good for the hitter!
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funny as a lefty my fav pitch to crush was the low inside one. Drop that bat head and connect. (at least in little league ) just kiddin I did play hs/legion ball. I hated the chest high heater , as do a whole bunch of 12u girls. MD
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You know, Dan, it is possible that I have it "bass-akwards". I couldn't find my old copy of the book to double check (I pulled the picture off the internet), but my memory was that this diagram was from the batter's perspective. Could I possibly have that memory flipped around in my mind?
Anybody have a copy handy to check on that?
Anybody have a copy handy to check on that?
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This would be really cool if actual data was used from MLB or D1 softball insted of just an estimate. I'm sure the data exists. Maybe we can get cshilt on this, he always seems to have some off the wall internet dohickey drill or info.
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Ah, the power of Google. Here is an interesting link on pitch location, it's not tied to average but it's interesting non-the-less.
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/11/generalities_in.php
I hope this is not construed as actually contributing something of relevance to the OFC. I apologize in advance.
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/11/generalities_in.php
I hope this is not construed as actually contributing something of relevance to the OFC. I apologize in advance.
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TheRinger said:
I'm not sure of the chart that bretman linked to as I can't see it at work (some photo share sites are blocked). Are these the hit location charts you're talking about?
Here is an in-depth view of the chart...
As you can see, Ted had the most problems with low and away. Low and inside also being a decent location, provided it was at the knees.
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Thank you, cshilt! The second chart you posted is the same one, but I could not find the one that superimposed Williams into the shot.
I did have it backwards from memory. Duh! The picture you posted with Ted next to the plate clearly shows that the illustration is from the pitcher's point-of-view, looking it at the batter. Which really makes more sense, since low and away is usually considered the toughest pitch to hit.
Still, it shows a big dropoff from pitches near the center. The extreme bottom inside pitch is marked .250, the third lowest average listed, while the low outside pitch is marked .230, the lowest listed.
Right down the pipe and Ted considered himself a .400 hitter- and he should know, since he could do it!
I did have it backwards from memory. Duh! The picture you posted with Ted next to the plate clearly shows that the illustration is from the pitcher's point-of-view, looking it at the batter. Which really makes more sense, since low and away is usually considered the toughest pitch to hit.
Still, it shows a big dropoff from pitches near the center. The extreme bottom inside pitch is marked .250, the third lowest average listed, while the low outside pitch is marked .230, the lowest listed.
Right down the pipe and Ted considered himself a .400 hitter- and he should know, since he could do it!
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Suddenly we have a couple really interesting threads going. Btw it seems the guys with the chain link glasses are ahead in the polls.
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Howard - In looking at the pic of the zone that Bear posted, how do you teach hitting the low inside pitch? It seems as though tilt will pretty much align the shoulders with every other location, combined with getting rotated through sooner for the high/inside. But the low/inside looks tough to reach with a good connected swing. Is a somewhat disconnected swing needed to get there, or do you suggest some other method?
First we teach bat control by hitting up the middle and then go to the low and away pitch and rotate as needed and hit it to the zones I have on the net. I use the Schutt Shorty tee which is only 15 inches high. We then work low and progressively work up to incorporate bat angle adjustments to the swingplane.
I use the Schutt multi position tee however I modified it so there is a tee position exactly in the middle and forward of home plate. I added additional positions on the black lines on the plate so we could practice hitting it where they call it...plus our strike zone is 5 inches in/ out and up/ down out of the offical strike zone. The tee also has gray duct tape on the outside of homeplate... as I explain to my hitters this is the gray area of concern with umpires so learn it. I tell my kids it is your job to call balls and strikes and the only thing I want the umpire to do is call safe or out...you have to know what you can hit for yourself.
We added decals of softballs so they can see how 5 softballs can fit acrross the front edge of home plate and still be considered a strike. There are also 7 hardball decals for the boys.
After we work the middle and demonstrate bat control we do the outside pitch. Then using the Schutt Shorty we move the tee forward where the hitter feels comfortable hitting it and we have a place marked on the net where we feel the ball would be hit fair. They can adjust the tee up or back. Now we have what Don Slaught calls his window so the hitter then tries to establish how far in front of the plate and how far back (depth in box) the ball travels and they could hit the ball in fair terriority. This is the judgement of the hitter and establishes what they can cover from the same measured off position of the plate so we can cover both sides of the plate from that position while staying on our line of force by always striding towards the pitcher. We are always trying to be at toe touch as the pitcher is at their K position and prior to release.
After we get them hitting the inside low pitch we work up. Schutt makes another tee that extends about 3.5 feet high and we progressively move it up until they feel they can handle the pitch. I let them determine their window and it is up to them to practice doing it and trying to hit the ball in their window.
We then put the tall tee outside in the limits of their window and the short tee inside their window limits. As they load I say in or out and look for their eye movement to be in, in, in and adjusting away.
On the field we have taken the big Gatorade bottles and used them as tees to see how well they can hit the ball just for fun. When they keep in mind the hands are above the pitch plane they handle most pitches very well and make the required swing plane adjustments with the bat.
Hope this helps and we will see you at the clinic.
Howard
First we teach bat control by hitting up the middle and then go to the low and away pitch and rotate as needed and hit it to the zones I have on the net. I use the Schutt Shorty tee which is only 15 inches high. We then work low and progressively work up to incorporate bat angle adjustments to the swingplane.
I use the Schutt multi position tee however I modified it so there is a tee position exactly in the middle and forward of home plate. I added additional positions on the black lines on the plate so we could practice hitting it where they call it...plus our strike zone is 5 inches in/ out and up/ down out of the offical strike zone. The tee also has gray duct tape on the outside of homeplate... as I explain to my hitters this is the gray area of concern with umpires so learn it. I tell my kids it is your job to call balls and strikes and the only thing I want the umpire to do is call safe or out...you have to know what you can hit for yourself.
We added decals of softballs so they can see how 5 softballs can fit acrross the front edge of home plate and still be considered a strike. There are also 7 hardball decals for the boys.
After we work the middle and demonstrate bat control we do the outside pitch. Then using the Schutt Shorty we move the tee forward where the hitter feels comfortable hitting it and we have a place marked on the net where we feel the ball would be hit fair. They can adjust the tee up or back. Now we have what Don Slaught calls his window so the hitter then tries to establish how far in front of the plate and how far back (depth in box) the ball travels and they could hit the ball in fair terriority. This is the judgement of the hitter and establishes what they can cover from the same measured off position of the plate so we can cover both sides of the plate from that position while staying on our line of force by always striding towards the pitcher. We are always trying to be at toe touch as the pitcher is at their K position and prior to release.
After we get them hitting the inside low pitch we work up. Schutt makes another tee that extends about 3.5 feet high and we progressively move it up until they feel they can handle the pitch. I let them determine their window and it is up to them to practice doing it and trying to hit the ball in their window.
We then put the tall tee outside in the limits of their window and the short tee inside their window limits. As they load I say in or out and look for their eye movement to be in, in, in and adjusting away.
On the field we have taken the big Gatorade bottles and used them as tees to see how well they can hit the ball just for fun. When they keep in mind the hands are above the pitch plane they handle most pitches very well and make the required swing plane adjustments with the bat.
Hope this helps and we will see you at the clinic.
Howard
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