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fpf#1 - You are right....behind the plate was terrible! I can usually deal with it, but I have to say, I was getting pretty frustrated at times! Not all of the umpires were terrible...Thanks!
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These situations happened at the (10U) USSSA State tourney in Toledo. First, this is not a case of sour grapes, we won the game and won the tournament so I'm not complaining, just pointing out two plays.
Runner steals 3rd, she slides in well ahead of the tag and had actually stopped when the tag was put on her. Ump comes running over calls her out. I immediatly ask why, he says she never made it to the base. I look down and her foot is on the middle of the bag. I wasn't ready for that. He stunned me into silence with that explanation.
Same girl next inning: She is on 2nd. Hitter lines out to short, she throws to 2nd to try to pick her off. The runner slides back into 2nd as the ball goes into right field. She gets up standing on 2nd and takes off for 3rd. Field ump (same guy) says she never went back. Out!!
Like I said we won the game so I'm not complaining but I really think the guy couldn't see. Overall, the tourney was well ran and the umpiring for the most part was pretty good. Very nice complex in Maumme.
Nice Job Denny.
Runner steals 3rd, she slides in well ahead of the tag and had actually stopped when the tag was put on her. Ump comes running over calls her out. I immediatly ask why, he says she never made it to the base. I look down and her foot is on the middle of the bag. I wasn't ready for that. He stunned me into silence with that explanation.
Same girl next inning: She is on 2nd. Hitter lines out to short, she throws to 2nd to try to pick her off. The runner slides back into 2nd as the ball goes into right field. She gets up standing on 2nd and takes off for 3rd. Field ump (same guy) says she never went back. Out!!
Like I said we won the game so I'm not complaining but I really think the guy couldn't see. Overall, the tourney was well ran and the umpiring for the most part was pretty good. Very nice complex in Maumme.
Nice Job Denny.
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The best umpires at every tournament ran in Ohio will not want to do 10U age group (without significant coaxing) . Simple as that.
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bdd_biff said:
lol Even 10u in Nationals they don't know the rules. They had a meeting with coaches and explained the rules. It's pretty bad when we had to explain it to the umpires. What the purpose of the coaches meeting? It didn't help the umpires understand. I think 2 or 3 were there. They also needed 3 umpires for those games. No one watched 1st base when bases were filled. Girls were rounding 1st base. Pretty sad
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I am an umpire for 26 years in USSSA and mostly out of Cincinnati area, although I live in Wilmington. Personally, as an umpire, if that 10 and under has a 1:15 minute time limit with no extra innings starting after that, then I want that game. The key behind umpiring is enjoying the game, be professional, so the possibility that younger umpires are being placed on 10 and under games is puzzling to me. Why would any umpire want to umpire a 14 or 16 and under game for this amount with an 1:30 or 1:40 time limit, when they get the same amount of money for a 10-under game that ends in 1:15 ?
The key to good umpires in attitude. Period. We are starting a 10-under team in Wilmington this fall and will be holding a tournament Aug 18-19th in Wilmington to help in supporting them. I have looked and no other tournaments are scheduled nearby. We have another Sept 15th and 16th. We have a park setting, city park, plenty of diamonds, shade and space for warm up with no admission costs. I umpired at Pastime Park in Harrison for many years and have done fast pitch there as well as Expressway Park in Milford, including the 11 and 13 and under World Series last year.
The key to good umpires in a tournament director a) knowing them, B) willing to retain them as $20 for umpiring bases in an 1:30 or 1:40 game is not reasonable as I can umpire men's at 1:00 or 1:10 for same $20.00 dollars and even more sometimes.... so then fast pitch gets what's left when it comes to scheduling... This is the reality to the umpire situation.
I will guarentee you that if you enter either tournament in Wilmington, you will be getting the best of the best as I known many of these men for a decade and they have no other plans except to be at my tournament.
Just wanted to clear up the quetion of where are the good umpires..... and just so you know.... I LOVE FAST PITCH... will travel to do if needed....
Tim Cleaver
The key to good umpires in attitude. Period. We are starting a 10-under team in Wilmington this fall and will be holding a tournament Aug 18-19th in Wilmington to help in supporting them. I have looked and no other tournaments are scheduled nearby. We have another Sept 15th and 16th. We have a park setting, city park, plenty of diamonds, shade and space for warm up with no admission costs. I umpired at Pastime Park in Harrison for many years and have done fast pitch there as well as Expressway Park in Milford, including the 11 and 13 and under World Series last year.
The key to good umpires in a tournament director a) knowing them, B) willing to retain them as $20 for umpiring bases in an 1:30 or 1:40 game is not reasonable as I can umpire men's at 1:00 or 1:10 for same $20.00 dollars and even more sometimes.... so then fast pitch gets what's left when it comes to scheduling... This is the reality to the umpire situation.
I will guarentee you that if you enter either tournament in Wilmington, you will be getting the best of the best as I known many of these men for a decade and they have no other plans except to be at my tournament.
Just wanted to clear up the quetion of where are the good umpires..... and just so you know.... I LOVE FAST PITCH... will travel to do if needed....
Tim Cleaver
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Quakerman.... the answer is obvious... some are not into umpiring for the money. We have seen umpires who are a little too anxious to get the game over, get their money and go home. Some of these attitudes are quite obvious in their calls. I have seen umpires who will end the game minutes before the time limit expire so they don't have to start a new inning.
The umpires that prefer the older girls want to see a higher skill level and could care less about the time limit. I see more than my share of softball games, I too umpire, also a tournament director, I also have scheduled umpires.
The umpires that prefer the older girls want to see a higher skill level and could care less about the time limit. I see more than my share of softball games, I too umpire, also a tournament director, I also have scheduled umpires.
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Believe me sir, I understand what you are saying about umps ending games so new innings don't start. That is everywhere, sadly to say, and pushed on by tournament directors that don't schedule start times far enough apart for games to end, umpires to rest a bit. Time is money in all work. If I get base fees of $25.oo per game at 10-under level and no new inning after 1:15 or $30.00 per game for base umpire for 1:30 or 1:40 timed game ... then guess which game I am doing. So, I didn't understand the question of why do 10under get worst umpires of tournament.
Then again, I can get $22.00 a game to do men's which last 1 hr. to 1:10.
Thus, if tournament directors don't start upping the payscale of fast pitch umpires, instead of cashing in on the tournament for their own pockets... then it will never change.
I have scheduled two 2008 World Series Qualifiers for Wilmington, Ohio. The first is August 17th -19th for 10,12,14,16 and 18 and under. Park setting, no admission fees.
Next is September 14th -16th in Wilmington, Ohio for 12u, 14u, and 16u. Also, a World Series Qualifier for 2008.
I will guarentee you that you will have a great time and have very good umpires for fast pitch for nothing is going on in Cincy or Dayton those weekends and I know who is good and who is not in these areas. We are giving away the bank to teams in prizes based on amount of teams entered. More that enter, the better the prizes. If you aren't here.... well... you'll be sad you missed it.
Take care to all.
Contact Tim Cleaver at 513-575-3330 or at ohioquakerman@yahoo.com
Then again, I can get $22.00 a game to do men's which last 1 hr. to 1:10.
Thus, if tournament directors don't start upping the payscale of fast pitch umpires, instead of cashing in on the tournament for their own pockets... then it will never change.
I have scheduled two 2008 World Series Qualifiers for Wilmington, Ohio. The first is August 17th -19th for 10,12,14,16 and 18 and under. Park setting, no admission fees.
Next is September 14th -16th in Wilmington, Ohio for 12u, 14u, and 16u. Also, a World Series Qualifier for 2008.
I will guarentee you that you will have a great time and have very good umpires for fast pitch for nothing is going on in Cincy or Dayton those weekends and I know who is good and who is not in these areas. We are giving away the bank to teams in prizes based on amount of teams entered. More that enter, the better the prizes. If you aren't here.... well... you'll be sad you missed it.
Take care to all.
Contact Tim Cleaver at 513-575-3330 or at ohioquakerman@yahoo.com
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We have been paying $30.00 per game for the past couple of years. For 75-90 minutes, I would say that is pretty good.
If anyone is making good money in softball, it has to be the umpires not the tournament directors.
If anyone is making good money in softball, it has to be the umpires not the tournament directors.
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$30 for 1:15 is great for base umpire ?$30 is the norm for base umpires in 1:30 - 1:40 game. ?But, the thing is with a lack of umpires and most doing mens, womens, fast pitch, whatever..... Then if the good umpires go do men for $22 per game ( 1:00 - 1:10 game time) and do seven games in 7 hr shift... that equals $154.00 dollars.
Now, let's compare fast pitch. ? Go with the 1:30 game, any extra time because time limit was not up, and umpire rest/teams in and out of dugout.... comes to two hours. ?Two hour work time for $30.00.
Versus $44.00 (Men's 2 games) ?For 7hrs worth of work time in Fast PItch ?= $105.00
Now can everyone see the reason some good umpires do not do fast pitch. ?Personally, I love doing it. ?But, old umpires like me (49), well we have always went by a different code of ethics VERSUS the new wave of umpires (see previous posts of not continuing game even though there is still 45 seconds left, etc...)
? Personally, give me all the 10 and under fast pitch games you want to give me and I will do them alone, by myself, for $40 dollars a game with no new inning after 1:15 or 1:20 and give me five in a row. ?So this is why I am so confused why umpires do not take the 10 and under...lol...
? But, then again, YOU know us, umpires "AIN'T GOT A CLUE"...lol.
Now, let's compare fast pitch. ? Go with the 1:30 game, any extra time because time limit was not up, and umpire rest/teams in and out of dugout.... comes to two hours. ?Two hour work time for $30.00.
Versus $44.00 (Men's 2 games) ?For 7hrs worth of work time in Fast PItch ?= $105.00
Now can everyone see the reason some good umpires do not do fast pitch. ?Personally, I love doing it. ?But, old umpires like me (49), well we have always went by a different code of ethics VERSUS the new wave of umpires (see previous posts of not continuing game even though there is still 45 seconds left, etc...)
? Personally, give me all the 10 and under fast pitch games you want to give me and I will do them alone, by myself, for $40 dollars a game with no new inning after 1:15 or 1:20 and give me five in a row. ?So this is why I am so confused why umpires do not take the 10 and under...lol...
? But, then again, YOU know us, umpires "AIN'T GOT A CLUE"...lol.
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Wow...
I have never heard an umpire go so far out his way to make such a compelling argument in favor of which games should be worked based solely on the almighty buck.
Usually, I hear complaints that an umpire is in it "just for the money". Your position seems to be "just show me the money"!
But it is your choice and your preference to work any games you choose, based on any deciding factors that are important to you. Personally, I have never choosen one game over the other simply because one paid a couple more dollars.
Besides the money, some of the things I consider before taking a game assignment are: The reputation of the league or tournament with which I am dealing; The location/travel time involved; The competition level of the teams; My other schedules or committments; The challenge to my umpiring abilities that the games will present.
If all those criteria are met, a couple of bucks one way or the other isn't going to sway me.
One example: I can work adult baseball games in the summer at $65 per game, and do a few when time permits. Unfortunately, most of those conflict with a local league not far from home where I have a long association and some degree of loyalty. Instead of the adult games at $65, I have made a personal choice to work the league games at $40 each.
I can't speak for others (and would never paint all of the younger, "new wave" of umpires with the same broad brush) but working games I enjoy for a few less dollars isn't a deal breaker.
I have never heard an umpire go so far out his way to make such a compelling argument in favor of which games should be worked based solely on the almighty buck.
Usually, I hear complaints that an umpire is in it "just for the money". Your position seems to be "just show me the money"!
But it is your choice and your preference to work any games you choose, based on any deciding factors that are important to you. Personally, I have never choosen one game over the other simply because one paid a couple more dollars.
Besides the money, some of the things I consider before taking a game assignment are: The reputation of the league or tournament with which I am dealing; The location/travel time involved; The competition level of the teams; My other schedules or committments; The challenge to my umpiring abilities that the games will present.
If all those criteria are met, a couple of bucks one way or the other isn't going to sway me.
One example: I can work adult baseball games in the summer at $65 per game, and do a few when time permits. Unfortunately, most of those conflict with a local league not far from home where I have a long association and some degree of loyalty. Instead of the adult games at $65, I have made a personal choice to work the league games at $40 each.
I can't speak for others (and would never paint all of the younger, "new wave" of umpires with the same broad brush) but working games I enjoy for a few less dollars isn't a deal breaker.
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Unfortunately bretman, just about everything in life is tied to the almighty $$$ - except coaching and playing :'( If I gave up coaching and convinced my kids that travelball is the devil's spawn, I could probably have a pretty nice boat. Hmmm :
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Well, Bretman, I understand your feelings concerning the all mighty buck. ?But, facts are facts. ?If you could work a seven hour shift for $154.00 dollars or $105.00 dollars, which would you choose? ?Now, there is a no-brainer. ?I live between 1hr to 1 1/2 hr from Harrison or Dayton. ?So when determining which games I take, I know my fuel costs to get to the tournament and back. ?Then you wonder why nobody does the $105.00 games... which happens to be the financial thing to do. ?I don't have a park right down the street from me. ?So I have to determine all the factors.
As for my reputation as an umpire or tournament director, anyone can feel free to contact the dual state directors Scot Keuhnan or Mark Linnemann or Steve Larrick, District IV Director, Inducted into the Ohio USSSA Hall of Fame this year, and he will tell you that in the 23 years he has known me, I have been late to a scheduled game once, by five minutes because a fuel line came off from pump. I'm usually at a tournament site 45 minutes early just in case some tournament director decides to have umpire meetings, which some do and some don't.
? I have pride in my work and yes to some new wave umps it is about the money.... but in the end why would I work for 7hrs and make $105.00 versus $154.00. ?I still haven't got an answer for that except..... reality.
I have done Men's NIT to the point I can't count them if I had ten sets of hands, including Majors NIT. Gotta love those 75-64 games...lol...
I reallly love softball, especially fast pitch to the point that I am taking the time to start a program in Clinton County with a team we have named the Little Lady Quakers. We are starting with a 10 and under group and hopefully a 12 and under as well. Matters how much we can get donated. Many of you know, Clinton County and Wilmington area has very few travel elite teams. Count them as one.... Well, that is about to change. Invite us to your tournaments next year and we will come if not committed elsewhere. Then, look for our blowout tournaments that you really want to be at in next year's list of tournaments.
As for my reputation as an umpire or tournament director, anyone can feel free to contact the dual state directors Scot Keuhnan or Mark Linnemann or Steve Larrick, District IV Director, Inducted into the Ohio USSSA Hall of Fame this year, and he will tell you that in the 23 years he has known me, I have been late to a scheduled game once, by five minutes because a fuel line came off from pump. I'm usually at a tournament site 45 minutes early just in case some tournament director decides to have umpire meetings, which some do and some don't.
? I have pride in my work and yes to some new wave umps it is about the money.... but in the end why would I work for 7hrs and make $105.00 versus $154.00. ?I still haven't got an answer for that except..... reality.
I have done Men's NIT to the point I can't count them if I had ten sets of hands, including Majors NIT. Gotta love those 75-64 games...lol...
I reallly love softball, especially fast pitch to the point that I am taking the time to start a program in Clinton County with a team we have named the Little Lady Quakers. We are starting with a 10 and under group and hopefully a 12 and under as well. Matters how much we can get donated. Many of you know, Clinton County and Wilmington area has very few travel elite teams. Count them as one.... Well, that is about to change. Invite us to your tournaments next year and we will come if not committed elsewhere. Then, look for our blowout tournaments that you really want to be at in next year's list of tournaments.
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ohioquakerman said:
Since umpiring is my "hobby" and not my "profession", I would be likely to choose the games that give me the most enjoyment and challenge over the ones that might pay a few bucks more.
I do some 10U games when my schedule allows. But a steady diet of nothing but games at that level would bore me, no matter what the pay.
Recently I had the chance to work a 10U tournament that was practically in my backyard, just a short drive from home, or a men's fastpitch tournament that was 60 miles away. Both were paying the same rate per game, with the 10U tournament offering me 10 games over the weekend, the adult tournament only 8 games.
So my choices were between earning $350 with minimal travel costs, or earning $280 and burning a full tank of gas along the way.
I happily took the further away adult games as I find them to be much more challenging and personally enjoyable.
ohioquakerman said:
My comments had nothing at all to do with your "reputation". They were solely directed at listing reasons why an umpire- any umpire- might choose to work a given game other than the money factor.
I do not know you and know nothing of your reputation or umpiring abilities. As such, I would never attempt to comment on them in a negative light.
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Please Bretman..... I understand the desire of you personally to do want you want to do concerning which games..... but come on.... to 95% percent of umpires it is the money. ?And obviously with me as well, even after all these years. ?Don't fool these people online and let them think any differently. ?That would be wrong. ?It is about the money. ?This is why in Dayton, Ohio and Beavercreek area, next year Men's Class "C" and above will be paying considerably more than they did this year. ?Paying $20.00 ?dollars to umpires to umpire a fast and furious pace game that last 1:30 to 1:40 ( in Men's) when the bats have taken the defense out of the ?game. ?The last tournament in Dayton, there was one Dayton umpire there. ?The rest was from out of town. ?And then we agreed with why they didn't participate as umpires in their own district. ?The can go down the road and do Men's "E" for $20.00 per game and do two by the time one Men's "B" game is done..... ?I await to see if Dayton has any "B" tournaments next year. ?According to umpires I have known for years ... they doubt it.
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I'm not trying to fool anyone. I'm simply stating my opinions. If my opinion is different than yours, please don't take it as a personal affront.
As I said, I know nothing of your abilities or reputation. All I know of you comes from the comments you have posted on this forum.
Two such comments make me wonder who is fooling whom...
"But, old umpires like me (49), well we have always went by a different code of ethics VERSUS the new wave of umpires..."
You are defaming an entire group of umpires based on either age or having less experience than yourself. Just because an umpire is younger or has less experience, how does that automatically translate into a different, or by your implication, inferior code of ethics?
"...to 95% percent of umpires it is the money."
Now THAT is a broad-brush statement!
95%? Really? When did you take that poll? Did you ask this question to umpires throughout the state, the country or just in your little Dayton-area clique?
Slapping a number on an opinion might dress it up to look like a fact. It does not really make it one.
You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just that- your opinion. Do not try to pass it off as the opinion of the thousands of umpires working games out there that you have never had any contact with and have no way of knowing what their goals or motivations might be.
Now, if I had said that in my opinion it's NOT always about the money, then plucked some random number out of the air (since it's random, let's make it a good one. I choose 98%!) and claim that 98% of all umpires agree with me, THAT would be an example of "fooling these people on-line"!
As I said, I know nothing of your abilities or reputation. All I know of you comes from the comments you have posted on this forum.
Two such comments make me wonder who is fooling whom...
"But, old umpires like me (49), well we have always went by a different code of ethics VERSUS the new wave of umpires..."
You are defaming an entire group of umpires based on either age or having less experience than yourself. Just because an umpire is younger or has less experience, how does that automatically translate into a different, or by your implication, inferior code of ethics?
"...to 95% percent of umpires it is the money."
Now THAT is a broad-brush statement!
95%? Really? When did you take that poll? Did you ask this question to umpires throughout the state, the country or just in your little Dayton-area clique?
Slapping a number on an opinion might dress it up to look like a fact. It does not really make it one.
You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just that- your opinion. Do not try to pass it off as the opinion of the thousands of umpires working games out there that you have never had any contact with and have no way of knowing what their goals or motivations might be.
Now, if I had said that in my opinion it's NOT always about the money, then plucked some random number out of the air (since it's random, let's make it a good one. I choose 98%!) and claim that 98% of all umpires agree with me, THAT would be an example of "fooling these people on-line"!
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As being temporary umpire in Chief in my district, I can assure you it is about the money. ?From Harrison to Dayton and all points inbetween. ?It is not a "hobby" to most people. ?And for you to say that umpires aren't out there for the money.... see the posts of the people earlier placed. ?Seems that they have the feeling and KNOWLEDGE to know what is going on. ?I umpired for years just to build on to my house. ?I added one room every year with my umpire money... sometimes two. ?That work investment over the years has paid it's dividends, for sure and continues to do so. ?Some feed their families with their income... so this crap about a lot of people having the same idea as you and umpiring for a hobby ?and interests in better ball (age group wise), that group must be very small. ?Very, very small.. or an ASA thing. Honaker ruined ASA years ago, especially in Clinton County , Fayette County, Highland County, Clermont County, Brown County and Hamilton County. One ASA Park in Hamilton County and all the counties mentioned above. One, when there was many at one time. He just didn't want to listen.
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Shooow Me the Moneeey!!!!!
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Yes, sometimes you get what you pay for.... see previous posts concerning poor umpires at the 10 and under level.
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Remind me not to send my teams to Quakerland" :-[
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So, if someone has a different viewpoint than your own, or is associated with ASA, their opinion- as you so eloquently put it- is "crap".
I belong to two different umpire associations, with a total memebership of about 500 umpires. The ones I work with do not seem to share the "it's all about the money" attitude you describe as being so prevelent.
But that is my own personal observation, and I certainly haven't polled all 500 on the issue. To make a blanket statement that 95% of them agree with me, just because the fraction of them I actually work with might, would be ignorant.
Taking that same opinion and applying it the thousands of umpires across the entire state, whom I have never met and have no idea what their motivations might be, would represent some very closed-minded thinking.
If you choose games solely for monetary gain, that is fine. It's your choice and I don't have a problem with that.
If your personal experience, from first-hand dealings with umpires in your area, agrees with that, then you can make a qualified statement about umpires in YOUR AREA.
Extending that to mean that 50%, or 95%, or 100% of ALL umpires share the same opinion is, for lack of a better word, "crap".
I belong to two different umpire associations, with a total memebership of about 500 umpires. The ones I work with do not seem to share the "it's all about the money" attitude you describe as being so prevelent.
But that is my own personal observation, and I certainly haven't polled all 500 on the issue. To make a blanket statement that 95% of them agree with me, just because the fraction of them I actually work with might, would be ignorant.
Taking that same opinion and applying it the thousands of umpires across the entire state, whom I have never met and have no idea what their motivations might be, would represent some very closed-minded thinking.
If you choose games solely for monetary gain, that is fine. It's your choice and I don't have a problem with that.
If your personal experience, from first-hand dealings with umpires in your area, agrees with that, then you can make a qualified statement about umpires in YOUR AREA.
Extending that to mean that 50%, or 95%, or 100% of ALL umpires share the same opinion is, for lack of a better word, "crap".
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