Warning for coaches and players :(

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Rules are rules, no matter how obscure we think they are. It just goes to show you, as a coach you need to know the rule book inside and out. I think it is nice to see someone who knows the rules make a protest rather than the hundreds of times I see coaches arguing rules that they do not know and are wrong about.
 
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Although I have been guilty of this before, sometimes I just get excited!!! :D
 
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yes the coach did her job.. and I can not blame her at all for it!! The problem lies with the umpire the applied the rule incorrectly (IMO) and could have stopped that and all this madness afterward.. That rule was not made to take awy home runs from a hand slap, it is there to anot allow assistance to runners in play. There is a thing called in the "spirit of the game" and this ruling was by far.. in anyway shape or form.... in the SPIRIT of FASTPITCH SOFTBALL.. and the thing is the umpire did not have to break any rules whatsoever to apply the rulebook. He or she just had to knw that it could be a warning!!!

It goes something like this, " Coach here is your warning, make sure you players do not touch the baserunners before they touch home plate.. That's Ball game!!"
 
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The rules are the rules and when you start the game you, the coaches and players are AGREEING to play by those rules. It is and should be that simple. You can't say after the game is started it's okay to twist, fudge, change or ignore some rules. That should be done before you play. I applaud the coach for applying the rules to help her team win.
 
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Like I said Kat..., I personnally would not have made the protest. I will not begrudge someone who chooses to make a valid protest.

I get the spirit of the game, especially when you are a volunteer coach. On the other hand when you are a coach that is paid and expected to win for that pay, you do what you have too (within the rules of course).
 
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Like I said Kat..., I personnally would not have made the protest. I will not begrudge someone who chooses to make a valid protest.

I get the spirit of the game, especially when you are a volunteer coach. On the other hand when you are a coach that is paid and expected to win for that pay, you do what you have too (within the rules of course).

No dont get me wrong? I am in complete agreement with what the coach did... My issue is with what the umpire did? He/she changed the outcome of a game by his/her ruling instead of an outcome by what occurred on the field of play!!! (IMO that is why the provision of a warning was put in the rules for scenarios exactly like this or similar)
 
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Like I said Kat..., I personnally would not have made the protest. I will not begrudge someone who chooses to make a valid protest.

I get the spirit of the game, especially when you are a volunteer coach. On the other hand when you are a coach that is paid and expected to win for that pay, you do what you have too (within the rules of course).

I know you are absolutely right, as well as everyone who said "rules are rules".

I'm just grumbling because it doesn't feel very sporting. I'm just grousing a little, lol. ;)
 
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yes the coach did her job.. and I can not blame her at all for it!! The problem lies with the umpire the applied the rule incorrectly (IMO) and could have stopped that and all this madness afterward.. That rule was not made to take awy home runs from a hand slap, it is there to anot allow assistance to runners in play. There is a thing called in the "spirit of the game" and this ruling was by far.. in anyway shape or form.... in the SPIRIT of FASTPITCH SOFTBALL.. and the thing is the umpire did not have to break any rules whatsoever to apply the rulebook. He or she just had to knw that it could be a warning!!!

It goes something like this, " Coach here is your warning, make sure you players do not touch the baserunners before they touch home plate.. That's Ball game!!"

I agree with this 100%. :yahoo:
 
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Before everybody thinks they're going to start calling this in their high school or travel ball games, please be aware that this is an NCAA college rule ONLY!

Here is the actual rule:

12.3.1 Offensive team personnel, other than base coaches and runners, shall not touch a batter or base runner(s) legally running the bases on a dead-ball base award until the player(s) contacts home plate.
EFFECT: For a first offense in a game, the umpire shall issue a warning to the offending team. For a second offense, the ball is dead, and the runner is out and credited with the last base legally touched at the time of the interference. Each other base runner must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the interference.

Also of note, this rule is a completely different rule than the one about a base coach assisting a runner to run the bases during a live ball. The rule about coaches interference for assisting a runner during a live ball play is pretty much identical at all levels of the game. This rule applies ONLY to bases being run on a dead ball base award.

On a dead ball base award, a base coach can high five the runner, give her a hug or dance a jig with the player- there is no penalty. This is a commonly confused rule that some players and coaches- and, unfortunately, some umpires- try to enforce when a coach congratulates a runner on a home run. That is not illegal!

On a live ball, even if a coach touches a runner it isn't automatically illegal if the touch is not interpreted by the umpire as "assisiting" the runner to run the bases. "Assisting" would be holding the runner to stop them from advancing, pushing them toward the next base, or helping them up off the ground if they had tripped. If the runner has stopped on the bag and is making no attempt to advance, giving them a high five would not be a violation of the coach's interference rule.

NCAA added the rule about "offensive team personnel" touching the runner several years ago. This was in reaction to the typical mob scene you sometimes see around the plate when a player hits a home run. If the players crowd around the runner, it can be impossible for the umpire to see if the runner touches the plate. This also makes it impossible for the umpire to rule an appeal by the defense that the runner missed the plate.

The NCAA rule book is filled with odd little rules like this, and that is a reflection that in college ball the game more or less "belongs" to the coaches. Most of these odd rules came about because of some incident in a game where a coach felt slighted, complained and cried about it, and lobbied to add a rule to address it.

Witness the new NCAA rule requiring the pitching lane to be marked on the field.

A couple of years ago, there was an issue in a game with a substitution not being properly recorded on the lineup card. Arizona coach Mike Candrea protested the change and had the winning run taken off the board. There was a ruckus about that one and the next year the NCAA had a new rule about how changes must be reported to the umpires and scorekeeper.

Same with the "no touching" rule. There was a game where a player hit a home run, was mobbed at the plate, and the defensive team appealed that the plate had not been touched. Not being able to rule on the appeal, because they could not see the plate, the umpires had no choice but to rule the runner safe.

This set off the now familiar NCAA rule change process: Coach feels that team was done an injustice and cries about it to the rules committee and BINGO, you have a new rule that team members can't touch the runner on a dead ball base award.

On the game in question, I don't see how you can come to any conclusion other than the umpires blew this call. I can't see the penalty being anything other than a "warning" (assuming that no such warnings had been issued prior in the game). That this was a "game ending" play should make no difference, as the rule makes no provision for what point of the game the infraction might occur. This is a rule that if you're going to be working an NCAA game you should know!

I can't fault a coach for trying to get a rule enforced (even if she had the rule wrong). I do find part of her explanation kind of fishy. From the article: "The warning is down much farther (in the rule book) and I wasn't aware of the warning until much later," Musgjerd said.

Baloney. The "EFFECT" and penalty appear directly below and as part of the rule, exactly as copied and pasted above directly from the NCAA rule book.

I do fault the offensive team's coach for not immediately filing a protest. If she knew the rule- and the NCAA protest procedure- she could have protested this on the spot and had the call reversed. That she did not cost her team the victory.

Again, unless you're playing college ball, this rule has no effect on your games. My fear is that with the publicity this has gotten, umpires can expect to hear coaches crying for this rule to be enforced at lower levels this year and you'll probably see a few umpires incorrectly trying to enforce it.
 
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To do a slight hijack, sorry Kat but I would be interested in some thoughts on what this team did. My dd's 12u (mostly 11's) was playing a 14u high school team. They started picking up the signs and yelling them to their hitter. It ended up biting them in the arse as we were prepared with alternate signs that really screwed up their hitters and got their coaches to stop pretty quick. It p'd us off though and we gave them a good thumping and run ruled them. To me I say steal all the signs you can but be good enough to get them to your hitter with out yelling them out. Thought it was bush league, is it?
 
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And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why bretman is the best. :cool:

Great clarification and appreciate your judgement.

btw---had no idea this only applied to NCAA college only (and I suspect many others didn't, as well).
 
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Thank you Bret man for the explanationand I now feel better about giving high fives around 3rd, or slapping hands after a runner reaches third and is standing there.. Once again, I beleived i was Ok, but you have again confrimed this.
Thanks.
 
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The big problem with this whole story, neither umpire on the field knew the rule. To top things off, the "superior" who gave them out ruling was also wrong. The quality of umpires doing JUCO in Minnesota might be a little less than excellent, eh?

As stated before, this rule is an NCAA rule only. The same NCAA that allows jewerly and sometimes enforces IP's.
 
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Kat,

We might need a nanny soon. With all your discipline, compassion, class, mercy, grace, and overall feel good, do no wrong, you might be the only person on earth, I would trust with my kids. PM me if interested ^_^!!!
 
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Had this happen to me 25 years ago in a High School baseball game. Teammates High fived and patted me on the back before crossing home plate (Ball was over the fence) and the umpire called me out. The coach from the other team didn't say a word, the umpire made the call on his own?
This rule should be changed. How many times do you see a walk off Home Run in the Major Leagues and teammates piling up at home plate to great the batter.
 
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In addition to bretman being correct about the rule, the school involved here is an NJCAA school, not NCAA. I have no idea whether NJCAA schools use the NCAA rulebook, but they probably do. As soon as I read the thing, I knew it wasn't an NCAA rule that coaches couldn't high five a player on a home run. And if that rule did exist, a good ump wouldn't call it anyway unless the purpose was to physically assist the runner.

With the home run last year in the Central Washington game, the offense could have made a substitution during the dead ball and replaced the injured batter/runner. Incidentally, one of the two girls who assisted the Western Oregon girl is next door neighbors in Montana to a recruit of mine this fall. Apparently she and the other Central Washingon player turned down a Leno appearance last year at this time because they were too busy with school. Good for them, as they obviously take school a lot more seriously than I ever did!
 
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Had this happen to me 25 years ago in a High School baseball game.

In high school baseball, when the ball is dead (as it is on a home run) there is no penalty for a coach or player touching the runner. (Possibly, 25 years ago, high school rules may have prohibited players from leaving the dugout. That rule was modified a few years ago to emphasize that it is only illegal during a live ball, and only a warning on the first offense)

It's not a major League Baseball rule either. Same with high school softball and ASA softball, too.

Oddly, the rule in NCAA baseball is the same as for college softball! Somebody at the college level seems to have a bug up their butt about runners being touched during a dead ball base award.

Many of the questions here about rules deal with "rule myths"- commonly held beliefs that players, fans, coaches and even some umpires are just sure is a rule, but in reality have no real basis in fact.

A prevelant "rule myth" is that any touching of a runner, no matter who touches the runner or if the ball is dead or live, results in an out. This simply isn't always the case and is another one of those myths that is perpetuated every season.
 
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bret, didnt you run a "rule myth" thread a while back about this? if not, we need one..like the infamous, "tie goes to the runner"
 
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I thought the tie went to the runner only if they could prove that their hands were part of the bat.
 

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