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The third out is made with 50 seconds left on the timer. Does the next inning begin after that 3rd out has been made or when the catcher, not the coach takes one warm up pitch from the pitcher? This is a USSSA tourney. Just curious.
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I've always been told that it's immediately after the last out of the previous inning has been recorded.
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I agree, however, the umpires and T.D. in Greenville see it differently when it works to one of their teams advantage.
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The new inning starts as soon as the previous inning ends. ?If there's 5 seconds left on the timer, you start the new inning. ?That's pretty basic, although all tournaments should specify that in their rules to eliminate any potential controversey.
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Checked the rulebook and it does not say when a new inning begins, but it does say the inning ends when the third out is recorded in the bottom half of that inning. So if one inning ends, the next inning begins. I definitely hope the Greenville TD and umpires read and understand this, but that might be wishful thinking.
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Since we have two of the most knowledgeable people in the sport respond to this post, basically agreeing with me, I think it's obvious that a horrible decision was made this afternoon in Greenville today.
Can you smell the home cooking?
Can you smell the home cooking?
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To make a long story short this just happened today in Greenville and is basically pathetic on the part of the tournament director and umpires. To end a game this way and not let the girls who are 10 years old play the game is not fair to either team. These are young girls who like to play the game, are learning and deserve a chance to settle things on the field of play. In the future the tournament director needs to go over the rules with the umpires and learn them himself if he wants to run a tournament. Congratulations to the Indiana Thunder on your 1st place finish.
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as an asa umpire an inning start as soon as the last out is recored. Nothing has changed it has always been in the rule this way,it goes back to umpire who dont communicate w/ the director and not reading asa umpires manual (unforunately), i had a game today w/ 15 sec left after the third strike and we completed the next inning. Sometime though it is the decission of the tournament director,and time
that he alows.
that he alows.
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Obviously it is when the last out is recorded in the previous inning. Where was the UIC. It is really his/her call. The TD really is just there to mediate.
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We had a similar experience last year in Greenville. ?More than 1 team in the tournament had things like that happen to them. ?Not in the pool play, but in the elimination play. ?They seemed not to implement the rules until they had to in an elimination game. ? There were lots of questions about the rules during that particular tournament, which never seemed to get answered effectively, until elimination rounds.
We chose not to participate in their tournament this year.
We chose not to participate in their tournament this year.
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We chose not to go back this year for the same reason.
Our Saturday game got stopped with just over a minute left.
Sunday we played the same Greenville team again, but this time we were home team and winning ?- ?we started a new inning with only 25 seconds left.
Rules shouldn't change based on who's winning.
Our Saturday game got stopped with just over a minute left.
Sunday we played the same Greenville team again, but this time we were home team and winning ?- ?we started a new inning with only 25 seconds left.
Rules shouldn't change based on who's winning.
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In all fairness, we had the same experience in the semi-final elimination against the TD's team. There were 49 seconds to go when the inning ended and the umpires called the game. We hesitated because I knew the rule. I think it had nothing to do with the host teams just a lack of rule knowledge. The confusion might have been the drop dead time limit in pool play. I always hate to revert back to the previous inning.
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Although there is some home field advantage in Greenville, it's still not as bad, as when an Ohio team travels deep into Indiana! May I dare say, a reduction in strike zone, to a mere 12' by 12' box for our pitchers to pitch in?
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Yeah, I don't think the Wave or just about anyone else would be trying to skew time-limit rules in their own tournament to favor their own teams. I think 95% or more of the people in fastpitch are ethical and are in it to do the right things.
We've never run a tournament, but if we ever do, I plan to see to it that every possible aspect of the rules is addressed in writing before the tournament begins. The whole "when does a new inning start" is one of those rules that has to be addressed up front. Pool play tie-breakers is another. Rain refunds is another. Rain delays is another. The list goes on and on.
We've never run a tournament, but if we ever do, I plan to see to it that every possible aspect of the rules is addressed in writing before the tournament begins. The whole "when does a new inning start" is one of those rules that has to be addressed up front. Pool play tie-breakers is another. Rain refunds is another. Rain delays is another. The list goes on and on.
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I agree with JoeA. ?I was at the Greenville tournament and saw the confusion with the drop dead time limit. ?However, if everyone would look at the instructions in the package, it clearly defines the guidelines. ?I will say that the guidelines were different than other similarly runned tournament and that is where I think all the confusion cropped up (coaches and umpires alike).
I believe that the purpose for the rule about the "home team batting" was to discourage "slow down" tactics. ?Nice idea, but I would agree for next year they may want to rethink that rule.
I believe that the purpose for the rule about the "home team batting" was to discourage "slow down" tactics. ?Nice idea, but I would agree for next year they may want to rethink that rule.
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That's exactly the root of the problem Johnnies.
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As the tournament director for the tournament this weekend I have to respond to the comments listed above. Having been involved for over 15 years both coaching and running tournaments I have seen just about everything and this is not such an uncommon experience.
First of all let me start by saying that the UIC is and was the person to handle the situation and he did his job. He checked with the game umpires and when the last out was made the timer had not gone off yet. (there are timers located at every field). When the umpires looked there was actually less then 20 seconds left. At that time he looked out on the field and players from both teams were still in the process of coming off the field. As the timer went off a few players from the team in question were outside the dugout but by no means in thier defensive positions in the opinion of the umpires. Therefore they did not start a new inning because the time had expired.
Now no doubt there will be many different perspectives offered but the way that the tournament had been run all weekend and for years beofre this weekend is that the new inning starts when the pitcher takes the mound and the defensive team is ready to go. If the timer were to have gone off at that point the inning would have been played.
With the reference to home cooking I hate to even lower myself to the point where I have to address it. Most of our umpires are not from Greenville. Many come from all over. Sometimes we even have umpires from Springfield, Dayton, or Cincinnati doing games there.
I asked the umpires after the game if there was any clock watching going on, and they said no. For the record the away team was preparing to bat when the game was called as well. To read the posts above it gives you the impression that someone was there standing next to the timer watching the seconds count down. That was not the case at all.
Finally I want to say one last thing. Anyone who has been around this great game for any amount of time knows that it is fun, competitive, and sometimes frustrating. Hopefully they do not lose site of the fact that it is only a game. A game in this case being played by 10 year old kids. As adults we have to ask ourselves what impression do we want to leave on them. What I can tell you first hand is this. After the UIC explained the ruling, the coach wanted to address me as the TD. I was MORE then happy to discuss the issue with him and hear what he had to say. Anyone who knows me knows that I am very approachable. I asked him to step away from the crowd so we could talk like adults. Unfourtunately it never got to that point. I was hit with a barage of profanities that the entire complex became privey to. At that point I excused myself and said that this was not a productiive conversation and that I did not want to have his players subjected to that kind of conduct. Unfourtunately he did not feel the same way and had the discussion from a distance in a rather loud voice and mainly in words that can not be repeated on here.
I am fully aware that there is two side to every story. I was willing to hear his, but he made that impossible. I would rather not have posted that, and as you can see I am not name dropping any teams or organizations. That is not my style.
However I will defend the actions of hard working umpires who honestly could care less what two teams were playing in a 10U tournament game. Thier job is simply to work the game and they were doing thier job. The home cooking comments are cheap.
Furthermore I may add that the results ended up like this:
14U
Champions: Buckeye Heat (Clark)
Runner-Up: Miami Valley XPress (Red)
12U
Champions: Lady Lasers
Runner Up: Miami Valley XPress (Red)
10U
Champions: Indiana Thunder
Runner Up: Ohio Wave
I don't see a whole lot of home cooking there.
First of all let me start by saying that the UIC is and was the person to handle the situation and he did his job. He checked with the game umpires and when the last out was made the timer had not gone off yet. (there are timers located at every field). When the umpires looked there was actually less then 20 seconds left. At that time he looked out on the field and players from both teams were still in the process of coming off the field. As the timer went off a few players from the team in question were outside the dugout but by no means in thier defensive positions in the opinion of the umpires. Therefore they did not start a new inning because the time had expired.
Now no doubt there will be many different perspectives offered but the way that the tournament had been run all weekend and for years beofre this weekend is that the new inning starts when the pitcher takes the mound and the defensive team is ready to go. If the timer were to have gone off at that point the inning would have been played.
With the reference to home cooking I hate to even lower myself to the point where I have to address it. Most of our umpires are not from Greenville. Many come from all over. Sometimes we even have umpires from Springfield, Dayton, or Cincinnati doing games there.
I asked the umpires after the game if there was any clock watching going on, and they said no. For the record the away team was preparing to bat when the game was called as well. To read the posts above it gives you the impression that someone was there standing next to the timer watching the seconds count down. That was not the case at all.
Finally I want to say one last thing. Anyone who has been around this great game for any amount of time knows that it is fun, competitive, and sometimes frustrating. Hopefully they do not lose site of the fact that it is only a game. A game in this case being played by 10 year old kids. As adults we have to ask ourselves what impression do we want to leave on them. What I can tell you first hand is this. After the UIC explained the ruling, the coach wanted to address me as the TD. I was MORE then happy to discuss the issue with him and hear what he had to say. Anyone who knows me knows that I am very approachable. I asked him to step away from the crowd so we could talk like adults. Unfourtunately it never got to that point. I was hit with a barage of profanities that the entire complex became privey to. At that point I excused myself and said that this was not a productiive conversation and that I did not want to have his players subjected to that kind of conduct. Unfourtunately he did not feel the same way and had the discussion from a distance in a rather loud voice and mainly in words that can not be repeated on here.
I am fully aware that there is two side to every story. I was willing to hear his, but he made that impossible. I would rather not have posted that, and as you can see I am not name dropping any teams or organizations. That is not my style.
However I will defend the actions of hard working umpires who honestly could care less what two teams were playing in a 10U tournament game. Thier job is simply to work the game and they were doing thier job. The home cooking comments are cheap.
Furthermore I may add that the results ended up like this:
14U
Champions: Buckeye Heat (Clark)
Runner-Up: Miami Valley XPress (Red)
12U
Champions: Lady Lasers
Runner Up: Miami Valley XPress (Red)
10U
Champions: Indiana Thunder
Runner Up: Ohio Wave
I don't see a whole lot of home cooking there.
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Johnnies and JoeA,
You are right on the money about that rule. As you know we only used it in the pool games and not in the tournament. It's intent was to discourage slow down tactics. We have decided that from now on we will have time limit and then complete the inning. Less confusion all the way around.
Of course that was not a factor in the issue listed above.
You are right on the money about that rule. As you know we only used it in the pool games and not in the tournament. It's intent was to discourage slow down tactics. We have decided that from now on we will have time limit and then complete the inning. Less confusion all the way around.
Of course that was not a factor in the issue listed above.
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Rich,
I enjoyed playing at Greenville this past weekend and I will definately recommend your tournament.
As far as the drop dead rule, it goes to show that you cannot please everyone. I like the proposed change to complete the inning at the point when time expires. However, you know that someone will find a reason to gripe about any rule. Just do your best and that will be enough for most people there.
I enjoyed playing at Greenville this past weekend and I will definately recommend your tournament.
As far as the drop dead rule, it goes to show that you cannot please everyone. I like the proposed change to complete the inning at the point when time expires. However, you know that someone will find a reason to gripe about any rule. Just do your best and that will be enough for most people there.
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The team does not need to be in thier positions for the next inning to start, if thier is time left on the timer after the last out the new inning should start, unless it is a drop dead time limit which this was not the case.
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