When does an inning start?

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Rich,

I'm confused are you saying that the drop dead rule was only to be used in pool play? Because pool play was completed the day before.

 

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Rich,
I will reply and say that it doesn't matter how long you have been doing this, ytou obviously have problems with the communication part of running a tournament as there are people who have posted on this thread with very similar situations. It is very clear that the inning ended, there was time on the clock, and the next inning should have started, No Question. The head umpire came to you and your "ruling" was that the catcher had to take at least 1 warm up pitch for the inning to officially start?? There were never any rules of that nature anywhere in this tournament nor have I ever heard of such a ridiculous ruling before.You made the wrong call plain and simple. You took the game from the players and decided the outcome. In the future try to remember that these are 10 year old girls on both teams and they would rather play the game on the field.

 

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For bracket play, there was a time limit, but you finished the inning once the timer went off.

 

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The inning was finished with 47 seconds left on the timer,the next inning should have started

 

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Johnnies,

That is exactly right. It was a bracket game and the new inning started when the 3rd out was recorded in the previous inning. There was not a drop dead time limit, so the new inning should have started.

 

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We were at the tournament this weekend, and I also agree that the rule was well intended, unfortunately I think it brought more attention to the time limit than intended simply because whether you were up or down near the end of the game, you found yourself checking the time to see if the inning you were in was even going to matter since it might revert back to the previous inning, especially when the score was back and forth. ?I know as our final game in bracket play was nearing the end, the opposing team made two pitching changes (which I don't think was intended to slow the game, but did chew up time), and we found ourselves hustling to get our girls out on the field with no warm up pitches to get into the next inning. ?It's hard to lose a close game period, but even more so when it's controlled by a time limit, even when it's necessary to keep a tournament running smoothly. ?Over all, I believe the tournment ran smoothly, the umpires were at least consistent with both teams, the facilities nice, and the competition was good. ?Thanks Rich!

 

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I just wanted to address one point, or maybe two

1. I know Rich said with his tournament no new inning can start unless the team going out onto the field has its players in their defensive positions. Applying the rule in this manner is asking for big, big trouble. Normally the rule is that a new inning begins the second that the last out is made in the previous inning. If teams must take their defensive positions for a new inning to start, can you just picture a team with a lead and 1 minute to go getting ready to take the field to start a new inning? That is an invitation for disaster and incredible ill will. While no one likes time limits, at least the only stalling that can take place when a new inning begins as soon as the last one ends will take place on the field and must be within the regular rules of the game.
If that doesn't make sense, all I can say to tournament directors everywhere is you'll have to trust me, you want a new inning started as soon as the last out is made in the previous inning.

2. Also, TDs. Spell out in detail what these rules will be. For example, take pool play tie-breakers. If you state that the tie-breaker will be (1) head-to-head; (2) fewest runs allowed; (3) run differential, that may not be enough. What if you have a three-team tie and only two of those teams played each other? Do you use #1 or go to #2? In head-to-head between the three teams, one team is 1-0, one is 0-0 and the other is 0-1. That could break the tie. But since the one team didn't play either one head-to-head, do you then say not all of the teams in the tie played each other and then proceed to #2? Either way can be ok, but you have to say up front which way it will be. Otherwise, you're asking for trouble.

I could go on and on with examples. Each tournament must have someone who is capable beforehand of knowing the potential rule problems and competent enough to make its written rules clear.

 

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tlg, now we are down to 47 seconds, earlier the post said 50. See how these things vary.

Allow me to ask you a question. Was the reaction to the situation on your teams behalf by it's coach acceptable to you as the head of the organization? Is that what you expect from your coaches who have 10 year old children in their care?

 

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Yes I would want my daughter in his care and she is, I have a 10year old daugter that plays on that team, that called me crying after that game becuase of what happened, she has been around travel ball most of her life and I guess she knows the rules better the umps.

 

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The language used by a certain coach around those 10 year old girls was awful. My DD will never be involved in an Organization that condones such childish and almost violent behavior. A sad example was given to the girls on how to behave. That organization got a big black eye after watching that behavior. I am not one to throw stones, but that type of behavior is for jail houses and bars, not on a softball complex surrounded by 10 year old kids among others. ? > jmho

 

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I am an avid reader of this forum and enjoy reading the posts and learning from them. Although I have not posted on the forum, I felt compelled this time to post. We too were at this tournament and although I did not witness the rule in question (I was watching another game), I did witness part of the "show" that the coach put on in front of his age 10 and under team and trust me, it was not ?a rated PG "show". Whether or not you agree or disagree with a ruling from the umps, I believe that there is a way to question the call and a way not to. I also believe that travel softball is not only a sport to better young people as athletes, it is also a sport to better young girls as people and we as adults are responsible ?in teaching both by our knowledge and by example.
? I know the TD in question, and from my experiences with him, no pride or glory would be obtained by him from winning in any other manner than pure fastpitch play. "Home cooking", as it was put, would bring no one any pride or glory in winning. From what I have seen of this TD, he is true to his line below his name in his posts, "It's all about the kids". Travel softball is not about winning at all costs, it is about teaching the game of softball to improve the girls as players and as people. From my accounts with this TD, he contributes to the game with both his knowledge and by example. Can everyone honestly say this?
? Too many times, adults forget that this is not about us, it's not about being right all the time. It is GIRLS fastpitch softball, the main word being girls. We need to remember this, as we are on display to these girls as examples. After all, it is ALL about the kids.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Sincerely,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Mrs. Pakman

 

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Are team lost a game because of the drop dead rule, we had to go back to the last completed inning, after we tied up the game, but failed to end the inning before time ran out.

 

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Who cares if there was 47 seconds or 50 seconds? Don't try to muddy the waters. All there needed to be was 1 second left when the inning ended for a new inning to begin. These girls fought hard all weekend and their last chance to stay alive in the tourney was taken away from them. My daughter also plays on this team and I can't think of anyone else I would rather have coaching her. The argument was not as bad as some people are making it sound and did not happen right in front of the girls. My daughter had no idea what happened. It did take me a half hour on the way home trying to explain to her why we couldn't finish the game. Even at 10 years old she realized the umpires explanation of "not throwing a warm up pitch" was ludicrous.

 

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Wrong ! ?> ?The Language used by the coach was explicit, and was among the children. Terrible example to set for an organization. Many of the parents from he other teams were chatting in a negative way about the behavior of the coach who was wearing that organizations name. A big black eye was given to the organization as a whole after that incident.
This sport has no room for vulgar profanity especially in front of 10 year olds as well as many other teams and parents from all age groups. 1st class organizations do not allow this type of behavior at all. Sure, we have all as coaches argued a bad call, but when it is not overturned we shouldn't act like prison inmates on death row. We are teachers and we should never show ignorance by acting like winning at all costs is everything. This sport is growing, and it is getting harder to get talented girls into organizations. Behavior of the coaches can make or break an organization. True winning organizations keep a close eye on their coaches and their behavior because they know that word of mouth about the organization as a whole is far more important than any record in a tournament.

 

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Bottom line is the call was bad and the focus is trying to be changed here. None of my girls were around when you tried to talk to me and anyone that was around knows that. It doesn't matter if there is 1 second, 47 seconds , or 50 sec. time was on the clock and you did not allow us to finish the game. This has been a problem at your tournaments before , as other people have posted, so maybe you will learn from it this time.

 

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As a TD myself, I apply time limits because they are needed to keep somewhat of a schedule that teams can rely on. They are needed because the demand is for games first. They do cause problems, usually a couple of times during an event because of complaints about slow down in play, but it is something that needs to be weighed off against other complaints about being 3 to 4 hours behind.

Having been involved in a lot of youth events over more years than I care to think about, I have noticed that the younger the team and especially the number of first time experience in the travel game, that the "more excited" the coaches are and the parents are "more caught up" in the game than sitting back and enjoying it. I too was probably more caught up than I should be until I realized there were a lot more serious things in life than a child's ball game --that stage probably occurred when my 10 yr old turned 12 and as he got older I got progressively more into watching and enjoying than worrying about an umpire's call or decision. Again from my perspective, most parents go thru this same carthasis and do much better as their children age. The most pleasant age group I run turnaments for is 18 and over---all these players are out playing for the love of the game, and many have parents still tagging along and most are so very laid back.

The point here is that this is only a game and it just takes young, first time parents a while to learn that. They generally have a lot of learning to do--I know I had to.

Joea--I've been around longer than you---but we have always gone with the time limit as being expired if the team was not on the field ready to pitch. I do agree with spelling out how it is defined, however.

Bob

 

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Bottom line:

Team loses and coach blows up over what he thought the rules were. ?Strictly going by the book, the game wasn't over.

Several mistakes:

Coach nor parents read the tournament rules-who is at fault?

Coach blows up in front of kids-who is at fault?

Coaches talk about poor little 10 year olds when in fact, kids that age are so resilient they won't even remember it tommorow. It's the coaches egos that get crushed.

Coach-did any calls go your way during the tournament that shouldn't? ?Did you blow up then?

Hiding behind bad calls and rules to explain why you lost is poor sportsmanship. It's unfortunate but it happens. A couple of teams could still be crying about the Steelers but grown men move on and lead by example.

Everyone knows tig and everyone knows his reputation. Even the name of his teams indicates an extension of his personality. Too bad because he is a great instructor.

As long as kids have parents that are ok with their kids being coached the game well and it doesn't matter if it's by intimidation, they will keep getting kids.

I prefer a coach whose kids play hard for him because they want to. Not because they are afraid not to....

 

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To continue to state that this took place in front of the young ladies on this team is just not true. I also have a daughter on this team and she was completly unaware of a situation. If it was a barrage of profanitys that the entire complex was privey too how come she who was maybe 50' away never heard a word? After the coach walked away from the situation it was the T.D. who chose to follow the coach where the team was meeting.

 

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We too were at the tournament. I wasn't really sure what the chaos was about but it certainly made us turn our heads. What I saw was the T.D. approach the coach to discuss whatever it was that happened and the next thing I know a few filthy words here and a few there from the coach as he walked away from the T.D. Yes, it was loud enough that others were aware of the situation including my child who was playing on the field adjacent to their field. Please remember this is a just a game. I understand everyones frustrations but there is a time and place to act accordingly and on a ball field filled with children & parents is not the place nor the time. Children are like sponges they absorb everything and just about the time you think they don't hear or see something trust me they do!!!!!!!

 

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troya with all due respect you have a few facts wrong.

1) The first conversation attempt with the head coach took place 15 feet from the dugout. Not only were many (not sure if it was all of the players but MANY) were right there. In addition there were MANY of the players and coaches from the next team trying to get in to the dugout.

2) The way that the diamonds are set-up the dugouts are exactly 50 feet apart ( I know I built them) that means that every child coach and parent standing on the field next to the one your team played on heard him.

3) After my initial attempt at an adult conversation with your coach he did not walk away from me. I excused myself after what could only e discribed as an ignorant profanity filled rant came my way. For the record my exact quote to the coach was "There is no way that we can have a reasonable discussion after an outburst like that" Then I told him that the conversation was over, and I left the area to diffuse the situation. I was aware that he would not going to listen to reason, and I was trying to save the crowd from another outburst.

4) After a few minutes I did not want to leave the situation like that. I considered the fact that maybe the coach just had a moment that many of us who have been doing this for a while experience. So I decided to give him one more chance to explain his side and explain what I had been told. Keep in mind I did not have to do this, but I thought that it was the right thing to do. So I went over towards where the team was huddeling, and I asked if I could speak to the coach. I wanted to do it off to the side out of the way of everyone else, and to be honest with you that conversation never got past the first 4 or 5 profanities that he threw at me. So agian I excused myself. Of course then another round of profanity morters rang out across the complex as I walked away.


Those are the facts. That is exactly what I told the leader of your organization happened, and honestly I have no reason to make any of it up. You can ask your organization leader why I made him aware of the situation. It really was all about the girls.

Keep in mind, all of that happened when the temperature was a rather comfortable 65 degrees. Just wait until the temps reach 95 this summer. I suspect that some will remember this weekend as the beginning.



dadof2, don't worry accourding to your organization leader the coach is safe and secure and has his full support. None of this ever happened. Have a great summer.