Where do we draw the line or is there no line?

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CMJMAM- On our team we make it really simple. ?You sign the roster. ?If you decide to leave the team for another team, you will be released once you are paid in full. ?This money is then applied to the player fees of the remaining players.

This is an interesting idea. ?I'll pass it along.

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. ?I feel reassured that there is some honor in fastpitch despite a few questionable coaches.

 

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It's about time though some of these teams were outed. How many had invested their money to the team and did all the fundraisers only to have their daughter forced to quit by not playing them in any games for an entire weedend. I know if I go any further this will be deleted. But for the newbies coming on board they do need to be warned before investing alot of time and money and zero coaching.
Check out the turn over of a team, find out why only a couple of the girls returned. Ask lots of questions.
Although we did, answers varied tremendously (red flag).
Good luck to the teams out there for a great season. :'(

 

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Nut
I can tell you this. Last year we had a horrible year. The girls on the team didn't get along ,parents didn't get along..... coaching was pretty much non existant. We only have a couple of girls who returned this year we also made a COACHING CHANGE which has done wonders for this team. We have a great group girls who all get along and our parents are outstanding.It is like day and night. Sometimes a change is good. We have also experienced the tackiness of coaches trying to get our players to leave our team to go with them that is where our parents came in and said NO. We also didn't have enough girls to make a team until the coaching change was made and within a matter of days we had parents calling asking for a tryout for their daughter/s . Ask questions but keep a open mind sometimes changes make all the difference

 

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Fortunately......it is only a handfull of coaches or programs who regularly participate in this behavior.......for the most part good coaches have an unwritten understanding of ethics and they do abide by them.....was not long ago that a young lady approached me saying she liked our team and would love to be a part of it....after asking ...have you committed to anyone else and getting the well yeah but I don't like the coach...we passed......short term gain is not worth being labeled as an organization or coach who participates in that type of behavior......but Unfortunately some folks and some organizations have a win at all cost mentality and sleep well at night pilfering other girls from other teams.....not the skin I want to sleep in.

 

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Rage
Your key word in your situation is CHANGE, you made changes and I hope it brings success to you.
There are others out there that are not making changes, just trying to steal talent.
Also as far as players changing teams you also have to look at what they went through, in my dd case, 2 teams one year each, both folded after one year. ?So its not just ship jumping.
Both sides have expectations which both need to be discussed. ?Don't tell the players that you have the team you want and then within 4 hours be posting on here for two players, what kind of loyality is that instilling in your team?
Just throwing my 2 cents in.

 

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This topic seems to be a two headed monster. One about "pilfering" coaches, the other about uncommited "ship jumpers." I personnaly don't worry about either. If a player wants to leave, then it is the best thing for both parties. If a player doesn't want to leave, she won't. I had a pitcher last year that was talked to just about every tournament. Well she is back this year. People want to leave for all sorts of reasons and they can do so without being shady about it. One of my best players decided to play for another team this year. She left on good terms and I wished them well. She wanted to pitch and she wasn't going to on our team.

As far as pilfering coaches, well it's a players market nowadays. Just look at the teams needing players, not just one player, but needing multiple players. You don't have to like it, but if they leave that easily then they weren't right for your team anyway. And why go through the headache of not releasing them? Why would you want to deal with those headaches when there is zero benefit in it for you, other than juvenille revenge.

 

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Well said Ringer
Sometimes the best way to win, is knowing when not to fight.

 

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I agree with letting players leave who want to or who see something "better" but the question is about the initial behavoir of always looking for players. It is wrong plan and simple to approach a player who is commited to another team. People can justify it however they want.
I just hope for all of us that the governing bodies don't decide to stop it and bring in more regulations about player movement and make it more of problem.
People have the opportunity to make a choice every tryout seaason and that should be sufficient but as long as teams are looking for trophies they will be looking for talent..... anyone's talent.

 

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Not that this has happened, but take this from the "Bearer of Bad News" dept....

we know that all coaches desire pitching, enough said...
so....what if a coach knew about a girl, didn't necessarily offer a spot, but realized, upon conversation, that girl/parents (which, normally is the case) is looking to pitch elsewhere, because.... (pick one of the following reasons, albiet, know that there are many many more out there)
1--they are the 3rd string pitcher and wanted more time (now, in a perfect world this pitcher would "deserve" more time/but sometimes they are 3rd out of the dugout because their change-up hits the dirt before crossing the plate)
2--they were the stud for their community team and were looking for more competition/exposure

so, girl ends up leaving team, jumps ship.,...who is to blame? org for not keeping them happy, new org for making the suggestion and welcoming them with open arms?

there's other stories out there, just hunt around here a while and you'd find them...but some coaches have talent in spades during tryouts, some don't...I guess that's the chance you take on being a coach, whatever, but it is what it is....parents/coaches are always looking.(and don't forget to mention that girls sometimes play where they are accepted, you bring on a girls BFF, you just bought yourself an extra player)..you meet the right guy, you start talking, you play with said org suring an open week, yadda yadda yadda, you're plastered all over the OFC!

maybe I talk to too many people walking around during game breaks, but these kinds of things do happen....also, I am in no way condoning said behavior, or have recruited (statguys like me don't recruit) in this manner...just passing on the facts as I see em.

 

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I have been around softball for a number of years and there is not enough space to tell of the ?recruiting? I have observed over the years.

I know of many that were recruited (and accepted) that told me their stories over the years. ?Again ? not enough space. ?From my conversations with these people ? I have suggestions for the parent whose DD have been ?approached? and offered a spot. ?I recommend asking these questions before you make a decision.

1. Will my DD taking playing time away from another player on the team?
2. How much playing time can my DD expect on the team?
3. How many players do you currently have?
4. How many have you added since tryouts were concluded?
5. How many other players are you seeking to add to your team?
6. What is the maximum number of player you will have on the team.
7. If you find another player that you feel is better than my DD at her position, will you offer her a spot also?
8. How long have the current players been playing for you?
9. How many returning from last year? ?
10. If the answer to #7 is a low number?.. How many players from last year did you choose to keep?
11. How often do you practice?
12. May I have some contact information for parents from last year that I may contact for reference?
13. May I speak with your current player?s parents for the same references?

I formulated these questions from talking with many parents that choose the ?greener pastures? in past years yet they did not return to the team the following season. ?You should always investigate before you break a commitment.

 

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The bottom line is this is not a contract type of relationship. This will never end, and there is no true wrong and right. What one person sees as right others will see as wrong and so on and so on. Of course those who lose players will feel abused and those who have players come to thier team will rejoice and exclaim how happy they are that the new player took the time to seek them out.

I have been reading this OFC website for some time now and I have seen and read this same thread about 100 times. No doubt as the years go by we will see it 100 more.

Enjoy the players that you have while you have them. Teach them something about the game and help them with their individual skills and you will go a long way towards maintaining your roster. Parents and players want to see some results for theri time and monetary investment.

What I do not see enough people address on here is the one true simple fact. It is that they want to be part of a successful team and they want to see the time, effort and money that they put into this sport produce some positive results. Instead what you see is the politically correct responses that will not bring negative responses to the poster. Having been around this sport for a long time I have come to find out that success and winning is what people are seeking. Not winning at all costs, but success and being able to compete week in and week out. Losing stinks, and even the most loyal players and parents can only take so much. Eventually they will seek out a better situation and when they do it will be time for the team that lost that player to begin another thread on the OFC.

 

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I ran into a little girl yesterday who I had built a good relationship when they played rec ball. When she decided to play travel ball, she went with her friends to a competing program. Even though she had the opposing program's sweatshirt on, I gave her a hug and told her that I was happy to see her playing. I told them that it really didn't matter who she played for, as long as she played. I have no doubts if she isn't happy with the other program that she will try out for our program the following year.
I have had players switch to our program during the season. I have always called the coach of the other team and explained to them that they called wanting to switch and I always get the approval of the coach prior to allowing them to play for us. This is the way it should work between programs.

 

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But would the reaction to the girl -- or more specifically, the family -- be the same if they had paid their deposit, signed their contract, practiced/played with your team in your program and then jumped to another team because the coach did a little recruiting through the girls on his team?

 

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After reading through all these posts and other similar topics, I have to wonder about to something.....aside from the Coaches NOT scouting players that are committed to other teams and Players NOT bailing on the team they already committed to....I think WE, as Parents, need to be teaching our Kids to fulfill their obligations. ?Never, in all the years of our daughter playing softball, or sports in general, has she EVER been permitted to walk away from her team mid-season. ?Its a rule in our house that we live by strictly. ?Doesn't matter what the activity, if our kids sign on to something, they're in for the long haul, until its completed. ?Now, that they are teenagers, they think twice before jumping onboard because they know that no matter what, they're stuck til the end. ?Now, ofcourse they are extreme situations where this rule may need to be broken, but the lines have gotten grayed a bit and it seems like a player is excused for quitting on a team for petty reasons, like she didn't get to pitch every inning or her Coach had the gull to say something about her poor attitude that was negatively affecting the team, or she failed to attend practice (again) so she didn't get to start the next game. ?Rules that have been a part of sports for years, are now taken so lightly and are twisted to fit the particular situation. ?The unwritten rules aren't enough anymore, I agree with that. ?But I firmly believe in teaching our kids the true meaning of being a "team player". ?Coaches get so much bad press. ?I say we give em' a break, let em' do their jobs and stand by our teams and our decisions to be there. (JMHO..ofcourse)

 

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So much in our society starts at home anymore, I agree we as parents need to take the first step in this not only in softball but in everyday life.......great post eatsleep

 

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I'm with you on that, eat...we bleed classic purple around our house, win, lose, tie, whatever..in the long run, it's good for her, maybe she can instill that with her own DD one day (if i let her marry some knucklehead, that is!)

she is already planning for 16's and getting her classics "tatoo"..and while she may occaisionally be rented out for an off weekend, she's usually trying to recruit more than she is being recruited herself... :-X

in the end, it's probablt more the parents who bail out more than anything...and that desire to win at all costs is the American way, regardless of how you look at it...dads, grandparents, lazy uncle Lou, all want their family and DD's to do well and win...kids bolt because they think they can win more elsewhere, or win "their" way (those who end up coaching or becoming a dassistant coach--dad + assisstant-- somewhere....

 

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I agree parents are the ones who need to stop this. If parents would tell the other coach trying to recruit that they are already commited then this would not be an issue. If you want to switch in the off season then that is the time. We did (not everyone who bails is bad) we switched because her old team wasn't going to develop her as a catcher. We found a team (only when we looked because her old team only had 3 show up to tryout, and 4 returning players) that has sets up catching lessons 2 times a week and practices the pitchers and catchers aside at every fielding practice.This worked out best for both us and the old team. Because she wasn't playing her position of choice, never given a shot to play anywhere different her self esteem was down and it showed when she played. Her new team gave her confidence that she didn't get from the old team. Now she doesn't care if she gets put in right field although she would prefer to catch a whole game_she has actually made a couple of awesome plays out there. You can see it in her attitude going onto and off the field. (Not that it was right for her to not put 110% but she felt useless and therefore played that way).

But it all boils down to commitment. She was committed the whole season and would have never thought about leaving. Parents need to instill these moral values in their child to stick it out. As it was said that is a lot of the problem with our society. No wonder we have a divorce rate in our country that is so high. Our children are being raised with the notions of if it isn't good just quit and look somewhere else. Ok I guess that is a whole other monster that I could go on about for hours but will not bother you with.

I am not sure that making a player stay whose parents want her to leave is such a good idea. I as a parent would not want to deal with an unhappy parent all summer long. They can make things miserable for everyone around. If they want to leave let them go. But to the coaches who do recruit an already commited player shame on you .You are contributing to the corruption in our society and as a parent that takes the coaches offer you better look over your shoulder your dd could be the sitting if he sees someone else during the season......Yes it is only softball, but morals and ethics have to start somewhere and if you are willing to do it for softball I am sure that it will happen in other aspects of your lives.

 

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Nice posts Eatsleep and brandy, but let me play devils advocate for a minute.When is it alright to leave a team. Lets say you went to tryouts paid your fee practiced with the team and decided it wasnt a good fit. Now lets say you knew of another team that had a need for your daughter and the team you had commited to had enough girls to play without her. Would it be ok to eat your team fee and shove off? Now from a coaches view if you knew your team was going to have an opening next year and you saw a girl on another team at a tournament that you liked. Would it be ok to invite her to your tryouts at the end of the year.Or to tell her if she has an opening in her schedule you would like her to fill in at a tourney? ( For those of you who know who I am DO NOT READ ANTHING INTO THIS POST we are HAPPY where we are and I already bought some hoodies).

 

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Chico....define what one might consider not a "good fit"?

I had girls quit my team because they didn't think we were going to be good enough, I assume that meant they thought they were too good for the other girls on the team.......would that fall into the category? I'm just curious. It's a tough situation as a coach when you think your team is full and you begin assessing players and know you have 9 months to bring out strengths and work on weaknesses, then they yank the rug out from under the team by quitting, leaving other girls in a panic wondering if they are going to have a team to play for. There's really a lot of opinions on the matter. I wouldn't want a girl to play for me that didn't want to be there. At the same time, girls on my team were scared we weren't going to have enough to field a team, and understandibly so, felt jipped because they didn't attend other tryouts as they wanted on this team. Everything ended up working itself out, and I ended up picking up girls that were more about how they could serve the team as opposed to how the team could serve them.

Personally, I think no girl can be "taken" from a team that don't want to be. If she is truly happy, no coach or team in the world is going to lure them away. So if a coach approaches a player already committed to a team and "steals" her, did the original team really lose anything anyway? More than likely, it wasn't the girl that was unhappy, it was the parents.

After a tourney near the end of last Summer, an opposing team approached me and my step daughter and asked if we'd be interested in attending his tryouts. I didn't see anything wrong with that, he liked what he seen in her play and just wanted to invite her to his tryouts, in case she was looking for a change, I seen no harm in it. I also see no harm in pickup players in tournament situations. I had a girl that played winter ball with me that I knew going in was already committed to another team. She developed friendships with the players on my team during winter ball and all the girls liked her. We'd love to have her play for us if she's available in the Summer. Not just because she's a good ball player, but because she's fun, upbeat and brings leadership to the situation.

 

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I'm with you guys on the committment thing, When we started travel as a 10u we were kinda recruited out of a rec league. We were contacted by a team an hour away in the fall. We committed, fund raised all winter, and found out in the spring their was an opportunity to play 15 min away as opposed to 60 min. We stuck it out the whole year because we had already committed. Twice a week practices an hour away. My wife considered divorce by the end of that year. (kinda kiddin') We played the year out and tryed out the following fall for the team closer to home. MD