Why Do Managers Coach 3rd Base ?

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This is a subject that Joe Abrahams and I have discussed in the past and I just can't help but wonder.. why in the world would a Manager coach third base for their team?

Let's make sure everyone knows the defination of manager and coach.. as they are two different people. Managers are the team's headperson and coaches are his assistants.

I've had this discussion with many umpires over the years and coaches and would like to hear some views from people.


First, it is my belief, that no manager should be coaching ANY base. None. His job is to "manage" a team.. not coach it.

I have seen as a TD and umpire over the years what I feel is a complete mistake by managers who take on this double duty.

I have watch third base coaches trying to do too much when it comes down to trying to talk not only with the base runner at second or third... but trying to "coach" the batter as well and then watch that same third base coach get upset when a runner messes up on the bases.

Personally, I think the blame goes to the third base coach that is doing more than they should be doing in the first place.

With the ASA rule of foot in the box requirement for the batter .. it seems that the issue is even more intense.

A manager holds the job of controling the whole aspect of the game and relays that through his coaches.

I have seen over the years, the mistakes made by the third base coaches who is trying not only to inform the base runner .. but also the batter. It's way too much for one person to do. Time cannot be spent on "coaching" both.

A third base coaches job is too coach the runner in scoring position and make sure that runner knows what the situation is when it comes to outs and what to do in certain situations .. like if the ball is hit on the third base side or the second base side or pop up or line drive hits .

I'm a firm believer that is the priority of a third base coach.. to handle the runners.

A manager should be on the bench watching the batter's swing an informing that same batter of what she might be doing wrong at the plate on a swing or etc...

I've seen over the years a third base coach trying to talk to the batter and paying less attention to the runner in scoring position ( especially a runner on second base ) and blow scoring opportunities because not enough time is spent "coaching" said runner... And then it just kills me when the third base coach gets upset when that runner on second screws up and gets out because he wasn't "coaching" her properly.

After the pitch, the manager's job is to think quickly and supply a sign to the third base coach then turn his attention and voice back to the batter if needed. That third base coach supplies the sign to the batter and base runners and should be the ONLY thing the third base coach does for the batter. Now, the third base coach should be concentrating on the runner he has control over on third and second base. If a runner is on first, that runner should be taught to look for the sign immediately from the third base coach and then look and listen for instructions from the first base coach.

I've seen over the years, too many first base coaches talking to the runner instead of allowing that runner to watch for the signs of the third base coach... and then watch third base coaches wondering why in the world the runner on first missed the sign to steal

Here's why she missed it, coach. When she came back to first after the pitch.. the first base coach has taken her attention away from what she should be watching for in the first place (the signs) !!!!! By doing that as the first base coach... you have "ruined" any opportunity to have strategy to the game set by the manager from the dugout.

I have seen games and opportunities lost due to third bases coaches taking on too much responsibilities when it comes to "managering" the game.

And then want to put the blame on the runner if she messed up and didn't score on a hit.

 

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I have seen a lot of this and agree to a certain level. However I am a third base coach and not the "manager" but give signs to all involved, pep talk briefly the batter and the base runner on second (if there is one). I dont find it too much to do personally. It comes very easy for me to multi-task as my everyday job requires a ton of it daily.

 

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What if there are no runners on base. Is the third base coach just suppose to play tiddlywinks....after he relays a sign.

Plus I believe that the time for coaching a kid on their swing IS NOT AT THE PLATE!! If you start telling them a whole bunch of different things to think about during the at-bat, they are already out. Their swing should be developed during practice and they should just go be relaxed at the plate and just think about hitting. Everything else should be on autopilot(muscle memory) during the game. Work on tweaking at the next practice.

I like being out there. I feel I'm in much more control if I'm on the field. Plus I want to be the one in control of the runners. You say you've seen 3rd base coaches get overwhelmed by trying to do too much. I think you are asking them to do more by now having to relay signs from the bench and talk to the runners. I never understood why a manager wouldn't want to be out there. I think it's a relic of old MLB mentality. Anytime a MLB manager has time to do an interview during the World Series WHILE the inning is going on doesn't do too much coaching/managing anyway IMHO.

 

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I agree Ohio Wave. I have said for a while that we coach them in practice and need to let them showcase it on the field in the games and not coach them on how to do it rather pump them up during the game. But in respect to the post, like I said I'm not the actual manager but I do the signs, talk to the batter and runner on 2, if they are there. Not too much at all, not even close.

 

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I gave up 3B coaching duties for awhile, but I couldn't stand it. Assistant coach didn't do anything wrong, I just felt out of place not being out there. Plus he does a better job on the bench as far as taking time to review situations and going over what just happened with the girls, as I get too wrapped up in managing the game. So I guess I am saying I think it is easier for me to manage the game by coaching 3B.

 

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A manager should be on the bench watching the batter's swing an informing that same batter of what she might be doing wrong at the plate on a swing or etc...

That is the first problem. Too many coaches giving batting practice during a game.

Also, lets not make this more than it is. Coaches make mistakes, and very few are paid. Unlike the umpires, who also make mistakes and are paid to boot.

This isn't the major leagues. You are assuming that every team has 3 or 4 able body coaches on each team. When most of the time you hear that so and so cant coach as it is. And now you want to add another.

 

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Back to the OP - have you been a coach or manager? I know you as a TD and ump, not trying to be a smart alec.

Your suggestion to me just opens up more possibility of miscommunication with the manager sending signs to the coach who relays to the players. Why not have the players get marching orders straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak). It also makes the process more cumbersome. I am still watching the defense as I give signs and may change the call during sign giving depending on what I see.

I see myself as a head coach - not really a "manager" anyway. Coaching 3B is the best vantage point and never have I personally felt overwhelmed. Maybe this attitude will change as our kids get older but for now it's not changing.

 

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Back to the OP - have you been a coach or manager? I know you as a TD and ump, not trying to be a smart alec.

Your suggestion to me just opens up more possibility of miscommunication with the manager sending signs to the coach who relays to the players. Why not have the players get marching orders straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak). It also makes the process more cumbersome. I am still watching the defense as I give signs and may change the call during sign giving depending on what I see.

I see myself as a head coach - not really a "manager" anyway. Coaching 3B is the best vantage point and never have I personally felt overwhelmed. Maybe this attitude will change as our kids get older but for now it's not changing.

Totally on point. The head coach is responsible for everything. Coaching third base allows the HC to control the batters and te base runners. Every team is different, but each should have at least 3 coaches at games, each having specific duties. The bench coach is the one that assures the players know their roles and are into the game. Like other posters have mentioned - DO NOT tell hitters what they are doing wrong ingame. Stick to positive comments!!

 

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I manage the game from the dug out and let my coaches coach the bases. We have signs worked out for specific situations when I want to control something, but I try not to micro-manage my coaches. I picked coaches that I believe in and I let them do their thing... (most of the time). I have plenty of other things I'm concentrating on.

That is what works well for my team, but I don't see any problem with a manager who also wants to coach 3rd base as most of them do. I believe that (almost) every manager/coach does what they feel will be most effective for their team. Everyone does the best they can - 1 will win and 1 will lose. That's why it's so addictive.

 

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I think a manager of a team has several responsibilities, one of which is assembling a staff of assistant coaches which will complement the manager's skills, and then assigning roles for each of these coaches that will best accomplish the goals of the team. In some cases and with some staffs, the manager may be the best person to coach 3rd base, and someone else may be the best person to observe and "coach" the batter, whether it be while they're batting for after the fact. I would agree that some managers probably try to do too much, but disagree that they should never coach 3B. A lot of the offensive strategy as well as snap judgment is typically driven by the 3B coach and, as a manager, I'm not going to assign that role to someone else unless I feel that other person can do it equally well and fairly consistent with my philosophies.

 

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What if there are no runners on base. Is the third base coach just suppose to play tiddlywinks....after he relays a sign.

Yep.. his job as a third base coach is real simple now. Give the sign .

 

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Back to the OP - have you been a coach or manager? I know you as a TD and ump, not trying to be a smart alec.

Your suggestion to me just opens up more possibility of miscommunication with the manager sending signs to the coach who relays to the players. Why not have the players get marching orders straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak). It also makes the process more cumbersome. I am still watching the defense as I give signs and may change the call during sign giving depending on what I see.

I see myself as a head coach - not really a "manager" anyway. Coaching 3B is the best vantage point and never have I personally felt overwhelmed. Maybe this attitude will change as our kids get older but for now it's not changing.

I come from a long line of successful coaches.. through my father and all my brothers. They all had winning teams for years. Brother did rec ball in Wilmington for basketball, baseball and football. He won football for 15 years straight. Baseball for about 10 years straight. Basketball off and on championships. Then he would take the kids on the travel circuit and win as well after the rec season was over in late June.

Why would there be any miscommuncation between the manager and the third base coach on the signs for him/her to give?

So, in other words you are micro-managing by being the person who watches the defense, gives the sign and take care of the runners on base.. adding in the batter as well.... all in that 10 seconds that the batter has to return to the box after the previous pitch?

Four (4) things you have to do in 10 seconds time? Somebody is getting short changed.. and usually it's the runner.

I've umpired when a girl was on first and watched the base coach distract her to the point that the third base coach had to "yell" across the field to get the COACH's attention...LOL.. In the older age groups.. catchers just LOVE that situation.

 

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I played baseball through college and can tell firsthand it's a slower paced game than fastpitch softball. Defensive alignments - especially bunt and steal coverages develop much quicker. I have no idea what basketball or footballl coaching have to do with this. Either way, the analogy doesn't work here.

Why would there be a miscommunication? Any time you add a relay you risk it. Ever do the experiment where you have a room full of people and whisper a sentence to the person next to you? An so it goes around the room and by the time it gets back to the original sender it has no semblence to the original message? Heck we sometimes have issues from the coach to the catcher to the pitcher in pitch selection / location. Why would it be any different from the "manager" to the 3b coach to the players?

And the issue with the first base coach distracting from the 3b coach has nothing to do with whether the manager or head coach is in the dugout or coaching third. That's a separate issue that should be addressed within whatever team is having that problem.

 

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Coaches make mistakes, and very few are paid. Unlike the umpires, who also make mistakes and are paid to boot.

This isn't the major leagues. You are assuming that every team has 3 or 4 able body coaches on each team. When most of the time you hear that so and so cant coach as it is. And now you want to add another.

I agree with Akadema. If the staff is paid, the higher the easier, then better or more coaches are on the staff. But as VOLUNTIER COACHES, we may have a coach that is a top notch hitting coach, but can not run the offense from a base (no pun intended Steve). Or the team might have pitching coaches, fielding coaches etc and not a true base coach. If you look at the major leagues, the teams have a Manager, 2 base coaches, a hitting coach, a pitching coach, fielding coach, and a strength and conditioning coach.

Us travel teams are lucky to get 3 coaches that are great in any one aspect of the game.

 

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Sure it has the same analogy.. be a MANGER and manage your team and coaches. That's your job.

Good defensive coaches aren't going to show any player movement in coverage until the offensive give their signs any way and the pitcher in getting ready to start her wind up. Why give the offensive team any advantage and let them know early what you are going to do in your defensive movement? ( Usually that is for 14u and above though )

Yea, I understand the experiment you are talking about.. but we aren't talking about going around a room full of people. We are talking ONE to ONE communication. If you got a coach that can't get your signals right.. then that is a separate problem you must deal with.

Nothing was asked above about pitcher/catcher and them being on the right page when it comes to pitch selection and location. AT that time, I hope all the coaches are in the dugout since you ARE on defense.

My questions is: Why would a Manager put himself or herself in the coaching position on third?

So, my question to you is .. how do you micro-manage 4 different things in 10 seconds.. and get them all right?

 

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So, my question to you is .. how do you micro-manage 4 different things in 10 seconds.. and get them all right?

we dont that is why we lose SOME games .... LOL:lmao::lmao::yahoo::yahoo:

 

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Tim, again, I agree with you that some managers try to do too much. Where I disagree with you is your conclusion that this necessarily means they shouldn't be coaching 3B. It depends a lot on the skills and talents of the manager and the rest of the coaching staff.

 

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I have done it both ways. I utalize my coaches as Head coach, assistant coaches we are all coaches. But just like my players I utalize my assistants to use their strengths. With my 1st group using everyone strengths it was best for me to be in the dugout and had a quality 3B coach in a assistant. With my new group at this point it is best that I am at 3B. To me every situation is different and it is arrogate to think it can only be done one way to be successful

 

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Sure it has the same analogy.. be a MANGER and manage your team and coaches. That's your job.

Good defensive coaches aren't going to show any player movement in coverage until the offensive give their signs any way and the pitcher in getting ready to start her wind up. Why give the offensive team any advantage and let them know early what you are going to do in your defensive movement? ( Usually that is for 14u and above though )

Yea, I understand the experiment you are talking about.. but we aren't talking about going around a room full of people. We are talking ONE to ONE communication. If you got a coach that can't get your signals right.. then that is a separate problem you must deal with.

Nothing was asked above about pitcher/catcher and them being on the right page when it comes to pitch selection and location. AT that time, I hope all the coaches are in the dugout since you ARE on defense.

My questions is: Why would a Manager put himself or herself in the coaching position on third?

So, my question to you is .. how do you micro-manage 4 different things in 10 seconds.. and get them all right?

I'll answer this... I teach/coach/instruct my players to know what to do in 10 seconds... so YES I micro manage them in practice and give them strategy in the game. I didn't come from a long line of coaches, don't think I'm great, but my results have been fairly successful by positioning my coaching style off of some great coaching influences I grew up in. This debate could go on forever and some of it comes down to the fact the "I" manage a team on my job daily... my assistant coaches do as well... and that simple fact alone doesn't give me the ample time to setup an entire "non-paying" infrastructure like I would have if part of a professional team. You can also shoot holes in that statement (as I know) but for the goal of educating and putting the girls in tough situations and they know how to react... that's how you get the all of the items communicated in less than 5 seconds. I don't yell at my girls every single pitch and they grow from that. If I had to yell every pitch I either am not a good coach and/or I have the wrong set of players or even could have put them into a tournament/game situation they don't belong in... If I have to micro-manage every single play... I'm not a coach and surely not a manager.

 

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Back in the day when I coached, I liked to be at 3rd base. But when I got into coaching girls, I found that being in the dugout provided a better vantage point for the overall coaching aspect.

In the dugout, you can immediately talk to girls about what just happened on the field or in the batter's box.

Just like in the workplace, you either trust your subordinates to perform certain duties or you don't trust them and end up doing that duty yourself. So it boils down to trusting your staff to perform whatever duty you have them assigned to. It will be different for every team.