Hitting and Hitters Discussion Batted ball safety poll

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I seem to remember the same whaling and gnashing of teeth about 10 years ago,. For those of you that wernt in the sport they dumbed the bats down then for ........the sake of safety.......... So now we are talking of doing it again. The bats were hotter back then folks. The issue is that hitting has caught up with pitching and the Pitchers and their parents dont care for it.

There was a time when Fast Pitch was a pitchers catchers game. That was when small ball was king. Why was that? Because the hitting at that time ****ed. It was all any one could do. And at that time select was not as popular as it is now. Heck for us old timers the rule of thumb was you let your dd play slow pitch so she could work on her defense because there wasnt any offense in fast pitch.

Fast forward to 10 years down the road and look whats happened, power or long ball has entered the sport. It is now more exciting and more popular than ever and growing at a almost rampant pace. You cannot have things both ways, If you want the offense once again to play back seat to the pitcher/catcher you will doom this sport back to the past when only a select few played and pitching was king ( or queen since we are discussing girls )

We want out kids to play like boys, then set on the side lines and lip whip them because they dont and then act like they should be put in catchers uniforms to play the game because there is a chance someone is going to get maimed.

I am by no means down playing safety. I would never want another child to suffer an injury. But no matter what you do that risk is always there. No matter how safe we try to be and how much the sport becomes regulated.

Batters had to get better to face pitching and they have accomplished that, now for the second time there are some that want to level the playing field for the defense. Guess what no one did that for the offense it had to struggle and work to get better. Pitchers have to do the same.

It has now become so much of a concern that they are changing the strike zone in college to allow chalk plus to pitchers on the outside corners to help tame the offense. If pitchers do not want a worthectimy then get better at hitting your spots, changing speed and levels of the pitching. You throw the ball down the middle of the plate its coming back at you twice as fast. Why do colleges now look at junk pitchers more than power pitchers. Because unlike the olden days its almost impossible to blow a ball by hitters.

Its growing pains, It will never be even, there will always be dominate pitchers that can move the ball with speed, and there will always be dominate hitters that can match. Let em play ball.


Tim

Tim, the reason hitters s***** in the "old days" is because pitchers FAR outworked them - both in the men's and women's game. The pitchers have always been restricted from using techniques that allowed them an advantage. They had to stay strictly within limits to gain any advantage. And even today, you have noticed the chalked pitching lane that began to be used in NCAA play. Pitchers are not allowed to use devices beyond their own physical ability, and within the rules, to gain an advantage. Advantage must come from work ethic and physical ability.

Fast forward to today - the pitchers are still restricted by the same old rules. The batters received a wake-up call a few years back and began working hard (if not harder) at their craft than a lot of pitchers. The increased knowledge of effective swing mechanics has pretty much leveled the playing field, much the same as it has always been in baseball. So by those standards the "pitcher / batter" battle would be a fair proposition. It's skill vs skill. No more rotten swings. Heck, the top levels of baseball use the old fashioned wood bats and STILL gain advantage over the pitchers. I think it's a pretty fair matchup. And you have to discount pitch speed - when you factor batter reaction times, fastpitch and baseball are nearly identical.

But then batters were given another distinct advantage when allowed to use bats and balls that take advantage of all technology has to offer. Can you imagine playing baseball with Superballs? When a batter can nearly bunt a ball to the outfield, that is not a skill that evolved from work ethic - it's purely a technological advantage that has nothing to do with physical skill. I STRONGLY encourage kids to become the best and smartest hitters they can be. Build strength, increase bat speed and swing mechanics. They are absolutely cheating themselves if they don't!

I would use the standard that when a kid can consistently hit a softball over a 200' fence with a wooden bat in batting practice, they have arrived. Until then, they are relying on technology to make their power hitting skills something above what they are in reality. Of course someone could argue that going to "mushy" balls to reduce exit velocity isn't fair either, and I would agree. However, there needs to be a happy medium. I think that standard is right before our eyes. Why not use BBCOR standards that would apply to major league baseball? The women's game is already scaled proportionally in size for their ability. Pitch speeds are already similar to baseball - when you consider batter reaction times. Why not use technology to "scale" the batted ball velocity to match? Reward the hitters who have the discipline to better their skills, not whomever is willing to plunk down $300+ for technology in lieu of a work ethic.

Yes I know - fastpitch is a different game than baseball. But for a game that started indoors with "soft" balls, I think it has been distorted to something that is beyond what was originally intended. When technology ALONE is allowed to alter reaction times beyond what a major league baseball player could react to, something is wrong with the game.

I welcome the conversation!
 
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Nope sorry bud they are not, I said in my last post they are giving pitchers at the college level chalk plus, that is defiantly not the same old same old. Blaming a bat or a ball for hitting a home run is like blaming a pencil for your bad hand writing. It is the Hitters that have advanced, not technology, Technology has been reduced by standards set forth 10 years ago. Remember the 04 Techs or the old easton synergy?......... those bats make today's bats look like little league t ball bats.

The ball hasent changed in the last 10 years if any thing the core has been reduced in games. So if it isnt the bat or the ball then what is it?............... quite simply you said it your post. Hitters have out worked pitchers. Now its time for pitchers to step up and do the same.

Its about personal responsibility and how bad kids want to be the very best............ neither of which can be accomplished by more layers of bureaucratic ka ka set for by well meaning parents. What you said in the last paragraph of your post really sums it up....

Yes I know - fastpitch is a different game than baseball. But for a game that started indoors with "soft" balls, I think it has been distorted to something that is beyond what was originally intended. When technology ALONE is allowed to alter reaction times beyond what a major league baseball player could react to, something is wrong with the game.

Its hard to let go of what we know and like when something new and more successful comes along. I believe that there alot of people out there that believe just that and want it to be like it used to be when it was a pitcher / catcher game. Those days are gone, Softball has changed, its more exciting, fast paced, and explosive... and all aspects of the game have improved.

I can guarantee you this. If pitchers era,s were better, more strike outs, less scores per game this topic wouldent even have come up in conversation. You would never hear one pitcher or their parent complain. Personally what I see from the other side of the fence is that one side is being bested at the moment and using the guise of safety to hide behind. Where do we go from here?.............


Tim
 
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Sorry Boulder not all of those kids have improved their skills that far, the technology is 60% of the handicap for them. There is no way half swings that go over the fence are due to skills improvement Even in the CWS you saw it.... NO way...

Many have improved their skills, but not the majority
 
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But Tim - you completely ignored the part I mentioned about the wood bat comparison and the BBCOR standards. Are you denying that fastpitch bats don't give a distinct advantage in ball exit speed? It should have come as no surprise to anyone that NCAA baseball finally stepped in - because NO ONE else was going to stop the escalation of technologically advanced bats. I'm predicting that it's only a matter of time until the NCAA applies the same standards of bat testing to fastpitch. No matter how much some fastpitch folks are baseball haters, there's just no denying that softball is the scaled down Adam's rib of baseball.

Let's crank the calendar back to the days before aluminum alloy bats became popular, which was the early 1970s (yes I was around then ;)). The reasoning was to use aluminum - which was relatively lightweight but difficult to break - in order to save money by not having to replace broken wood bats PERIOD. Regardless of the prevalent bad teaching about swing mechanics back then, there were a few top NCAA players in those early days who could flat out hit - wood, low tech bats and all. They didn't need a technological advantage as a crutch - they did it with their own ability. And they did it with crappy bats by today's standards. Are you telling me that girls today need the advantage of technologically advanced bats to keep up with batting averages that would be equal in baseball?

There are two distinct discussions here. One is about improving one's skill level and physical ability, the other concerns using "hi-tech" bats. My argument has never been about hitters working their tails off with swing training, weight lifting, conditioning, etc. to gain an advantage. That is highly encouraged, and I think that mentality has finally taken root. However, once the Genie of magic bats was let out of the bottle, everybody wanted some - and NO ONE wanted to go back! Here was the magic panacea that would cure all hitting problems. I actually think the phenomenon of the hi-tech bat has hurt the cause of kids becoming better hitters on a larger scale. There is no doubt that some parents think the bat holds the answer. You and I both know that is not true, but it has definitely side-tracked some folks into believing more in a magic cure instead of learning a disciplined work ethic. Just look at the poll numbers!

Umpire giving pitchers an advantage? You have seen at least a season of college games to know the truth in that. Pitchers have had to battle a tight or changing strike zone forever. All you can do as either a pitcher or hitter is work with it and move on. I saw strike zones all over the place. I also saw some pretty good umps at the college level. But one thing I never did was blame an umpire for giving an advantage - either way - to a batter OR a pitcher. I gave that up at about the 12u level, because it does nothing but raise the blood pressure.

I stand by my claim - bring the ball exit velocity in-line with what baseball is trying to do, and continue working to make hitters better in their own right. That is how you level the playing field.
 
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I agree with Tim...I am a pitchers dad...get over it people you can get maimed by walking out your door in the morning, good lord. this game is a blast and baseball to watch is very boring comparatively...cant watch a whole game and stay interested because its SOOOOO slow...you dont like it, dont play fastpitch or otherwise protect your DD! Bats are very much regulated these days BTW, the bat is the last 10% of any kids swing...swing mechanics are what makes the hitter not the bat!
 
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I agree with Tim...I am a pitchers dad...get over it people you can get maimed by walking out your door in the morning, good lord. this game is a blast and baseball to watch is very boring comparatively...cant watch a whole game and stay interested because its SOOOOO slow...you dont like it, dont play fastpitch or otherwise protect your DD! Bats are very much regulated these days BTW, the bat is the last 10% of any kids swing...swing mechanics are what makes the hitter not the bat!

What! LOL
If "swing mechanics are what makes the hitter not the bat" then you shouldn't care if they deaden the bat. haha

I guess I will have my DD catch without any equipment because she could get maimed walking out the door. lol
 
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Actually, the bats I do not care so much about as the ball... Using 40-44 cor. ultra low comp is where Fastpitch is heading like slowpitch...
Two innings and an oval ball that sounds like a pillow you may as well use an indoor ball... The next level will not use these so pitchers / fielders get a false sense of security....

I would not care if they go wood bats for JO softball (like baseball is heading back too), Just use good 47-50 cor 400+ COMP balls.... the hitters will hit and the power hitters will get their dings, slapper/bunters will still be able to touch and go..and the purest will be in seventh heaven....

There will still be some injuries that is the nature of the game but, ball speeds will drop some ,and injuries will go down as well.

However; this will never happen so I am still in favor of different balls/bats for levels of play. This will keep A players from dropping down and that is where most of the injuries occur.
 
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I seem to remember the same whaling and gnashing of teeth about 10 years ago,. For those of you that wernt in the sport they dumbed the bats down then for ........the sake of safety.......... So now we are talking of doing it again. The bats were hotter back then folks. The issue is that hitting has caught up with pitching and the Pitchers and their parents dont care for it.

It is the Hitters that have advanced, not technology, Technology has been reduced by standards set forth 10 years ago. Remember the 04 Techs or the old easton synergy?......... those bats make today's bats look like little league t ball bats.

First, ASA's motivation on equipment standards is more than just safety:

"The ASA reserves the right to withhold or withdraw approval of any equipment which, in the ASA's sole determination, significantly changes the character of the game, affects the safety of participants or spectators, or renders a player's performance more a product of the player's equipment rather than the player's individual skill."

You have a skewed view on the history of rule changes. Your characterization of them is inaccurate and you failed to mention some of the rule changes that benefitted hitters. Here is the real story:

2000 - ASA implemented its first bat standard and it was geared for the slowpitch game.

2001 - ASA recognized there were major flaws in the testing procedure and it didn't represent fastpitch well.

2002 - ASA announced the 2004 standard - a major overhaul of its test procedure to implement what it originally intended in 2000. There are still issues with the test procedure because it doesn't accurately represent bat-ball collisions in games.

2008 - ASA announced the Accelerated Break In (ABI) test protocol in an attempt to keep manufacturers from producing bats that exceed the 98 mph standard after they are broken in. Manufacturers are still designing around the test and bats are produced that can exceed the 98 mph limit if they're broken in (rolled) properly.

2008 - NCAA lowered strike zone from armpits to sternum.

2008-2010 ASA and NFHS move HS-age pitchers back 3 ft to add more offense to game.

2011 NCAA implemented its own approved bat list, game site bat testing and protocols for bats failing tests. These were enacted to crack down on bats, legal and illegal, that exceeded the 98 mph standard.

At this point, I'd like to see ASA tighten up the existing 98-mph standard (e.g. ban the grandfathered bats, improve test procedures) and find a way to eliminate the illegal bats (i.e. rolled and shaved).
 
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Tim ... I agree with 90% of what you say on here, but to say that the reason for the complaining is pitcher's ERA's is BS. Yeah, my DD was a pitcher but she's "retired" now and thankfully never did get hit in the head. This issue is clearly about the safety of the girls ... pitchers and corner players particularly. It doesn't really make any difference to me what has changed over the years ... the fact is that the failure of these position players to wears masks is leaving them exposed to very serious injuries these days. I do still coach, including some of the girls you teach hitting to (and very well I might add), and I can't bear the thought of one of these girls being injured themselves or causing an injury like that ... I would be devastated, as I know their parents would be.
 
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I would like to see a rule change that corners and pitchers wear a mask no options . Would anyone put a kid in the batters box without a helmet ? Why would we put them in the circle or charge a bunt without a mask ?
 
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Tim ... I agree with 90% of what you say on here, but to say that the reason for the complaining is pitcher's ERA's is BS. Yeah, my DD was a pitcher but she's "retired" now and thankfully never did get hit in the head. This issue is clearly about the safety of the girls ... pitchers and corner players particularly. It doesn't really make any difference to me what has changed over the years ... the fact is that the failure of these position players to wears masks is leaving them exposed to very serious injuries these days. I do still coach, including some of the girls you teach hitting to (and very well I might add), and I can't bear the thought of one of these girls being injured themselves or causing an injury like that ... I would be devastated, as I know their parents would be.

The original post wasnt asking about enforcing mask rules for defenses it was about dumbing down bats and balls.....you want your kids wearing a mask...?make them.
 
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Let's see... would "dumbing down" bats and balls be anything like, say... "dumbing down" the speed of cars in your neighborhood? Heck - let 'em go 65 in a 25 mph zone! If you don't want your kids killed, just keep 'em out of the street!

Sorry... couldn't resist the analogy to that logic. Actually, the original post was asking an opinion concerning a proactive versus a reactive approach.

And by the way, the above would be a reactive approach, while doing nothing to address the actual problem.
 
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Let's see... would "dumbing down" bats and balls be anything like, say... "dumbing down" the speed of cars in your neighborhood? Heck - let 'em go 65 in a 25 mph zone! If you don't want your kids killed, just keep 'em out of the street!

Sorry... couldn't resist the analogy to that logic. Actually, the original post was asking an opinion concerning a proactive versus a reactive approach.

And by the way, the above would be a reactive approach, while doing nothing to address the actual problem.

for being a fastpitch community you people sure do complain a lot.....about the game. Ridiculous, play the game! if you dont like it, dont play it...take your kid out of it.
 
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my DD's a pitcher and she wears a mask and realizes if u get hit its part of the game.. we too buy the high $ bats....If she were to get nailed I wouldnt start protesting the bat and ball companies because it wouldnt matter if it was a plain aluminum bat and a girl has good mechanics...she will still drill you and hurt you .....then what we gonna make a rule for big hitters have to use sticks?
 
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for being a fastpitch community you people sure do complain a lot.....about the game. Ridiculous, play the game! if you dont like it, dont play it...take your kid out of it.

Really????? I pray someone you know doesn't have a catastrophic injury due to one of these weapons.
 
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chstrahl said:
for being a fastpitch community you people sure do complain a lot.....about the game. Ridiculous, play the game! if you dont like it, dont play it...take your kid out of it.

So you are complaining about others complaining. Geez, get over yourself and stop reading if it bothers you and hold off posting when you are drinking. ha
 
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hold off posting when you are drinking. ha

Good Point!:yahoo:..


I guess mainly what I am trying to say is that if everyone on here that does have issues should make sure there dd doesnt have one of those expensive "weapons" in their bag or that would mean you truly dont believe in safety of others over your dd's performance.....or you would have a walmart bat for her to swing... dont be a hipocrit and im not saying anyone is but im just sayin....;)
 
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Good Point!:yahoo:..


I guess mainly what I am trying to say is that if everyone on here that does have issues should make sure there dd doesnt have one of those expensive "weapons" in their bag or that would mean you truly dont believe in safety of others over your dd's performance.....or you would have a walmart bat for her to swing... dont be a hipocrit and im not saying anyone is but im just sayin....;)

We are having a MATURE discussion about proposed rule changes to improve the safety for our children. Because you believe in a proposed rule change doesn't mean you have to have your child abide by it or you can't be for it. That would be stupid. Just sayin..

And it's "hypocrite" just sayin... haha
 
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Hmmm.......Overall, the bats of today on average are MUCH better than the bats of 2004-2005. The sweet spots and forgiveness of today's bats are unparalleled, not to mention this little tidbit of information:

"Manufacturers of composite fast-pitch softball bats are doing their job well -- perhaps too well. An NCAA memo noted that "test results from the 2010 post-season were extremely disappointing. Of 24 bats tested, seven passed. Specifically, 17 bats failed by registering a batted ball speed between 98.0 and 104.7 mph." The speed limit is 98. Manufacturers push the limit with space-age engineering, creating an assortment of offensive weapons selling for $250 to $300. These brands represent the state of the art."

Now, take this information plus the fact that the pitchers are now 3 feet farther back, coupled with the fact that there are many more kids playing travel ball now which dilutes the pitching, fielding, and yes....hitting. Please don't tell me it's not easier to hit, and hit the ball harder more often than it was 7 to 10 years ago. The increase in offense is not mainly due to better hitting mechanics; it's due to the fact that it is much easier now for a hitter to hit the ball solid. The easier it is to make a solid hit, the increased chance of injury, especially the pitchers and corners.

Len

 
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"Manufacturers of composite fast-pitch softball bats are doing their job well -- perhaps too well. An NCAA memo noted that "test results from the 2010 post-season were extremely disappointing. Of 24 bats tested, seven passed. Specifically, 17 bats failed by registering a batted ball speed between 98.0 and 104.7 mph." The speed limit is 98. Manufacturers push the limit with space-age engineering, creating an assortment of offensive weapons selling for $250 to $300. These brands represent the state of the art."
These findings showed that bats exceeding the 98-mph limit over time are/were still getting through the ASA certification process despite the ABI test protocol. It prompted the NCAA to take control of it on their own instead of just using the ASA bat lists.

In 2011, the NCAA started maintaining their own approved bat list, barrel compression testing (BCT) at game sites and further testing on bats that fail on-site BCT to determine whether they are actually exceeding the 98-mph standard. If they find 3 bats for a model that exceed the limit, they ban it (i.e. remove it from their approved list). Interestingly, manufacturers did not submit all their older bat models for the NCAA approved list (e.g. Phenix).

For now, NFHS and other sanctions should change over to the NCAA approved bat list (or their own banned bat list based on it) because it would be better than the current ASA lists.

It's not valid to push for a change to the 98-mph limit when so many bats, legal and illegal, exceed it. The limit itself can't really be faulted when it is not actually in force.
 
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