Batting out of order...

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We had a situation this weekend where the other team's manager neglected to put a player in the lineup. He listed eight in the batting order with two subs.

The lineup situation was as follows (starting with the #7 spot in the order): batter #7 (last out of the previous inning), batter #8 (not listed on the lineup card as a player or sub), batter #9 (on deck, but listed in the #8 spot). So, according to the lineup card turned into the umpire and acknowledged by the coach as official, batter #9 was due to bat to lead off in this particular inning. Instead, batter #8 took her spot, was not in the lineup, and took a pitch before the umpire was made aware of the situation. Also, this is the first time through the order.

What is the call?
 
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Yea shame on ump, and coach...I witnessed this 3 years ago at Tourney and ump told coach that since they only put 8 in line-up they could only bat 8 (let them use dp/flex in feild though?????) and had to take an OUT for 9 spot....
Not sure if that was right or not but I bet that coach learned a hard lesson...
 
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We had a situation this weekend where the other team's manager neglected to put a player in the lineup. He listed eight in the batting order with two subs.

The lineup situation was as follows (starting with the #7 spot in the order): batter #7 (last out of the previous inning), batter #8 (not listed on the lineup card as a player or sub), batter #9 (on deck, but listed in the #8 spot). So, according to the lineup card turned into the umpire and acknowledged by the coach as official, batter #9 was due to bat to lead off in this particular inning. Instead, batter #8 took her spot, was not in the lineup, and took a pitch before the umpire was made aware of the situation. Also, this is the first time through the order.

What is the call?

Would have been better to let the batter finish her at bat before letting the umpire know. IMO
 
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What a mess! And a mess that could have been avoided if the umpire did what he was supposed to do and inspect the line-up given to him before the game to make sure it contains the right number of players. Once handed to the umpire the line-up is official for that game. Many umpires will accept the line-up, inspect it, then have the coach take one more look at it to make any corrections before accepting it as "official".

I know that when I go through that routine at a pre-game conference, a lot of coaches will look at me like, "Why is he wasting our time with that?", but it is how we're supposed to do it and if it prevents a mix-up later in the game it is worth the extra few seconds it takes.

I've only had one thing like this come up all year. In an ASA game, a coach handed me a line-up with a "Designated Hitter" listed! I explained to him that ASA does not use a DH and he did have the option of using a DP/FLEX. So he changed his line-up to include a DP, only this time he had only nine players listed! I explained again how the DP/FLEX needed to be listed and he changed his line-up again. It took a minute or two to sort out, but it would have been a bigger nightmare to sort out once the game had started.

Sometimes, something like this will slip by, for whatever reason. It just gets a lot trickier to sort it out during the game than if you fix it before hand.

Whichever player's name was listed after the #7 seven batter was due to lead off the inning. If the official line-up only had eight players listed, that would be the last player listed (batter #9, but technically she is batter #8 since there were only 8 listed).

When batter #8 (who was not listed on the line-up) entered the batter's box she was an unreported substitution for #9 (who was the scheduled batter). This is a substitution because it involves a player not in the starting line-up taking the place of a starter.

Since this was discovered after a pitch was thrown, and before the unreported sub reached base, there is no penalty. The unreported sub is now officially in the game. #9 has left the game. She could use her one re-entry to re-enter in the #8 spot of the batting order at any point.

Now we have to deal with the next spot in the line-up, which is the "vacant" #9 spot.

Batter #9 cannot bat there- she was technically in the #8 spot on the original line-up and is tied to that position. The only other option is to place the one remaining bench player/substitute in the #9 hole.

The end result is that the number eight hole is occupied by player #8 (who has come off the bench and replaced player #9) and the nine hole is occupied by the other bench player. There is no batting out of order penalty to be enforced, because this was corrected by the unreported substitution rules before it ever got to that point. No player has actually batted in a spot other than the one they were legally occupying in the line-up.

The only real penalty is that if the coach wants to get player #9 into the game again (she must enter in the eigth spot of the line-up), he has burned her one remaining re-entry. He has also removed any flexibility from his line-up/bench for the rest of the game, since all of his players are now locked into one of the nine original spots. If he has a player become injured, he has no substitute to replace her and would be forced to take an automatic out in that batting spot under the short-handed rule. If one of his players happened to be ejected, the game would become a forfeit because there is no available sub and you cannot continue short-handed due to an ejection.

Hope all that makes sense! :rolleyes:
 
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Bret, it does make sense (even if I had to read it twice to get it).

I have a follow up question, however. Remember, player #8 was not listed on the lineup at all as either a player or sub. Technically, is she allowed to play in the game at all?
 
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Since this was discovered after a pitch was thrown, and before the unreported sub reached base, there is no penalty.
Good call Bretman! Its amazing how many coaches don't know this part of the "batting out of order rules".
 
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Bret, it does make sense (even if I had to read it twice to get it).

I have a follow up question, however. Remember, player #8 was not listed on the lineup at all as either a player or sub. Technically, is she allowed to play in the game at all?

The rules state that all available subs "should" be listed on the line-up, but there is no requirement that they "must" be listed. It's recommended just as a courtesy to the teams and to help facilitate recording subs during the game, but there is no requirement to list them and no penalty if you don't.
 
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Good call Bretman! Its amazing how many coaches don't know this part of the "batting out of order rules".

This is actually an application of the unreported substitution rules, not the batting out of order rules.

The unreported sub rule (ASA 4-6-C) says that once a pitch is thrown the unreported sub is now officially "in the game".

The batting out of order rule (ASA 7-2-D3) says that after a pitch is thrown to the next batter all previous play by the improper batter becomes legal.

So, there is a subtle difference there and the "next pitch" has a different connotation depending on which of these two different rules you're looking at.
 
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Been a lot of posts about what kind of penalty could be enforced ... personally though, if I was the other coach, I would have seen this as an oversight and, after talking about it with the other coach and ump, allow them to bat the missed person either 8th or 9th. Wouldn't want to win a game because of something like that.
 
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Been a lot of posts about what kind of penalty could be enforced ... personally though, if I was the other coach, I would have seen this as an oversight and, after talking about it with the other coach and ump, allow them to bat the missed person either 8th or 9th. Wouldn't want to win a game because of something like that.

Well put.
 
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That is a solution that might fly in a lower level recreational game- if both coaches are okay with it.

The umpires hands are kind of tied in the matter, since this is a violation of the rules and the umpire is compeled to follow the rules as written. If you're playing tournament-level ball, or if one coach insists you follow the written rules, you're kind of forced to do what the rules describe.
 
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Been a lot of posts about what kind of penalty could be enforced ... personally though, if I was the other coach, I would have seen this as an oversight and, after talking about it with the other coach and ump, allow them to bat the missed person either 8th or 9th. Wouldn't want to win a game because of something like that.

I agree. That is why we fixed it and moved on. Just curious, though, for the official ruling here.
 
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A lot to consider. The level of play, pool play or elimination, friends or bitter rivals.

Since no real infraction has been committed yet, fix it and move on. The coach will go to the pitchers mound and announce to the world that he just made a bonehead mistake.
 
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Been a lot of posts about what kind of penalty could be enforced ... personally though, if I was the other coach, I would have seen this as an oversight and, after talking about it with the other coach and ump, allow them to bat the missed person either 8th or 9th. Wouldn't want to win a game because of something like that.

We had a similar situation this weekend, but with other circumstances. We were in the "consolation" game, which didn't mean anything. The coaches both agreed to simply bat their roster to get some extra at-bats for everyone. The umps said as long as both agree, no big deal. Our scorekeeper filled out our line-up card and forgot to include a player in the #9 spot. She came up and got a hit, and the other coach protested. She was called out, and I asked him if he minded if we simply batted her in the #11 spot now. He was ok with that.:confused: So, she promptly came up again, and got another hit. It was kinda funny.:lmao:
 
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