Batting Out-of-Order Scoring

[wvanalmsick]

Ok scorekeepers, the DP/Flex thread opened up a scoring question. How would you score the following: (Coaches, #3 is an excellent training opportunity)


1. Runner on 1st base, no outs. Batter A is supposed to be up however batter Z is batting in her place unreported. Batter Z hits a single to RF and reaches 1st base safely. R1 reaches 3rd base safely. The defense appeals for an incorrect batter before the next pitch. How is this scored?

2. Runner on 1st base, no outs. Batter A is supposed to be up however batter Z is batting in her place unreported. R1 steals second base. Batter Z hits a single to RF and reaches 1st base safely. R1 reaches 3rd base safely. The defense appeals for an incorrect batter before the next pitch. How is this scored?


3. Runner on 1st base, no outs. Batter A is supposed to be up however batter Z is batting in her place unreported. Batter Z hits a single to RF and reaches 1st base safely. R1 reaches 3rd base safely. The defense does not catch the batting order mistake. How is this scored?


4. Bottom of seventh inning, 2 outs, R1 at 2nd base, R2 is on 1st base. Defense is up by 1 run. Batter A is supposed to be up however batter Z is batting in her place unreported. Batter Z hits a double to RF and reaches 2nd base safely. R1 and R2 score, Offensive team starts celebrating, defensive team walks off the field. After all of the defense is in the dugout, the defensive manager is informed by the team scorekeeper that the last batter was the incorrect batter. Defensive manager approaches the umpires, who are trying to get off the field. What is the correct ruling and how is it scored?

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Are these BOO or unreported subs? Which ruleset?

 

[wvanalmsick]

Are these BOO or unreported subs? Which ruleset?

BOO, and we can use ASA Rules.

 

[BretMan2]

A few rules governing batting out of order might help sort these out.

If the BOO is properly appealed:

- The batter who should have batted is called out. You can record the reason why they were out as "BOO".

- The at-bat of the improper batter is negated, just like it never happened.

- Any advances made while the improper batter was at bat (ie: advances that weren't the result of the improper batter becoming a batter-runner via hit, walk, etc.) count. So a stolen base is still a stolen base.

- Any outs made during the play stand (with the exception of an out by the improper batter, whose at-bat is negated).

If the BOO isn't appealed, then all play stands and you score it just like any other plays.

As far as getting all that properly recorded, I'll leave that up the the scorekeepers out there!

 

[SoCal_Dad]

If I was with the team batting, I would be kicking myself and/or the coaches for letting it happen. BOO is often the result of the line-up in the dugout differing from the one turned in to the umpire.

1. According to NCAA scoring rules, nothing for Batter Z and Batter A is recorded out with U2. The advance of R1 is negated, so they're back at 1B.

2. The stolen base stands, so R1 is returns to 2B. Batter A is recorded out with U2.

3. Batter Z's AB is legal and gets credit for the single. The next batter up is the one following Batter Z in the lineup.

4. Too late since pitcher and all infielders vacated their positions and left fair territory - same as if reported after pitch had been thrown to next batter. Umpires still being on field would only matter if infielders had remained in fair territory. Everything recorded as it happened with Batter Z getting credit for a double, 2 RBIs and GWRBI.

Add: Written before seeing BretMan's response.

 

[wvanalmsick]

SoCal, most excellent. I watched a HS District Championship game a couple of years ago, score was tied 1-1, bottom of seventh inning, 1 out and a runner on 3rd base. Fly ball hit to LF who makes the catch. Runner on 3rd base left early, not too noticeable but it was early and she scampers home ahead of the throw. Defense thought game was over. I watched the umpires. They stayed on the field until the last defensive player crossed the foul line then they left the field. As the umps came by me I ask, "Did the runner leave early?" He replied, "Yes". So, they saw it and did their job, they stayed on the field until the last defensive player had left the field of play, waiting for an appeal that would not come.

Bretman or anyone out there, I have always had this question that I always seem to forget to ask (its a boring day and I don't have much going on so I sit and think about this)

Players A, B, and C are due up to bat. Offensive coach brings Player Z off of the bench to hit for Player A but he does not report her to the umpire. As an astute scorekeeper, I know that this is the incorrect batter. Batter/Player Z grounds-out so I do not mention anything. Player Z stays in the game and plays defense for Player A, still not reported as a substitute.

1. If Player Z participates in a defensive play that results in an out, can I appeal that Player Z is an illegal player?

2. When Player Z comes up for her next at-bat, still unreported, and she gets a hit, can I appeal a BOO even though I declined to do so when she had her first at-bat?

 

[BretMan2]

4. Too late since pitcher and all infielders vacated their positions and left fair territory - same as if reported after pitch had been thrown to next batter. Umpires still being on field would only matter if infielders had remained in fair territory. Everything recorded as it happened with Batter Z getting credit for a double, 2 RBIs and GWRBI.

On the last play of the game, an appeal can still be made up until the umpires leave the field, no matter where the fielders are. The stipulation about making an appeal before the infielders leave fair territory only applies in between innings during the game.

 

[BretMan2]

Players A, B, and C are due up to bat. Offensive coach brings Player Z off of the bench to hit for Player A but he does not report her to the umpire. As an astute scorekeeper, I know that this is the incorrect batter. Batter/Player Z grounds-out so I do not mention anything. Player Z stays in the game and plays defense for Player A, still not reported as a substitute.

1. If Player Z participates in a defensive play that results in an out, can I appeal that Player Z is an illegal player?

2. When Player Z comes up for her next at-bat, still unreported, and she gets a hit, can I appeal a BOO even though I declined to do so when she had her first at-bat?

1. Player Z is not an illegal player. She is an unreported sub, which has a different, less-severe penalty.

Illegal players are ones that have no right to participate (has already been disqualified or ejected, has already used her one re-entry, or subs in the wrong spot in the batting order). An unreported sub has a right to participate, but her coach just didn't report her entry to the plate umpire.

There are some slight diferences in how unreported subs are handled in different rule sets. Basically, once discovered you correct the line-up card and play on without penalty.

2. No, you can't appeal BOO here (well, you can appeal it, but the appeal shouldn't be upheld). While "Z" is an unreported sub, she still may occupy and bat in one spot in the line-up. The only way this would be BOO is if "Z" was already listed in some other position in the batting order.

 

[wvanalmsick]

I watched the umpires. They stayed on the field until the last defensive player crossed the foul line then they left the field.

What I saw then was probably just coincidence of the timing of the defense leaving the field and when the umpires decided to leave the field.

 

[BretMan2]

What I saw then was probably just coincidence of the timing of the defense leaving the field and when the umpires decided to leave the field.

Maybe not. Some umpire manuals tell the umpires to wait until the fielders leave fair territory if it's the last play of the game. A team could still make an appeal after that, but the reasoning is that by that point they probably aren't going to. Waiting for the fielders on the last play of the game is really just kind of a "just in case" thing for the umpires to do, not the actual cut-off point for when an appeal could be made.

 

[wvanalmsick]

Thanks Bret.

I'll have to go study some more now.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

On the last play of the game, an appeal can still be made up until the umpires leave the field, no matter where the fielders are. The stipulation about making an appeal before the infielders leave fair territory only applies in between innings during the game.

Unfortunately, the compound conditionals under 7-2D for #2 and #3 are not worded clearly/properly enough to stand on their own, so I'd like to see an official clarification on them. I now see they can appeal BOO before the umpires leave the field after the infielders have left fair territory, so it comes down to whether #2 or #3 under ASA rule 7-2D should be applied. I presume ASA is consistent on this for all appeals and protests.

I believe the stipulation on making an appeal before infielders leave fair territory should still apply at the apparent end of a game - otherwise, additional time is allowed to make an appeal or protest since the umpires are supposed to wait for that and/or them to line up for "high fives". If so, #3 would be the proper one to apply in this case, so the play would stand and the appeal would have no real effect.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

1. Player Z is not an illegal player. She is an unreported sub, which has a different, less-severe penalty.
...
There are some slight diferences in how unreported subs are handled in different rule sets. Basically, once discovered you correct the line-up card and play on without penalty.

ASA does have penalties if discovered after completing a turn at bat and before next pitch, etc.

2. No, you can't appeal BOO here (well, you can appeal it, but the appeal shouldn't be upheld). While "Z" is an unreported sub, she still may occupy and bat in one spot in the line-up. The only way this would be BOO is if "Z" was already listed in some other position in the batting order.

OP seems to interchange unreported subs (ASA 4-6C) and BOO (ASA 7-2D), which is why I first asked him to clarify which one they meant.
Note: ASA rule references per my 2013 Participant Manual.

 

[BretMan2]

Unfortunately, the compound conditionals under 7-2D for #2 and #3 are not worded clearly/properly enough to stand on their own, so I'd like to see an official clarification on them. I now see they can appeal BOO before the umpires leave the field after the infielders have left fair territory, so it comes down to whether #2 or #3 under ASA rule 7-2D should be applied. I presume ASA is consistent on this for all appeals and protests.

I believe the stipulation on making an appeal before infielders leave fair territory should still apply at the apparent end of a game - otherwise, additional time is allowed to make an appeal or protest since the umpires are supposed to wait for that and/or them to line up for "high fives". If so, #3 would be the proper one to apply in this case, so the play would stand and the appeal would have no real effect.

After reading 7-2D, I'm not sure what part you might think is worded unclearly.

The end of game appeal procedure is the same for any appeal (BOO, missed base, leaving early on caught fly ball). Any can be made before umpires leave the field. This is explained in Rules Supplement #1.

 

[BretMan2]

ASA does have penalties (for an unreported sub) if discovered after completing a turn at bat and before next pitch, etc.

Yes, you are correct. For ASA, sometimes there's a penalty, sometimes there's not, depending on if the unreported sub is a runner, batter, or fielder, and depending on when it's protested.

For the play in question, since the sub was on defense and made a play, the offense would have the option of taking the result of the play or putting the batter back at the plate with the same count. One of the rare instances where the rules actually allow a do-over!

For high school/NFHS, if it's the first time an unreported sub is detected (in any capacity, batter, runner, fielder) it's just a team warning, no penalty. A second offense results in a bench restriction for the sub and the coach.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Bretman or anyone out there, I have always had this question that I always seem to forget to ask (its a boring day and I don't have much going on so I sit and think about this)

Players A, B, and C are due up to bat. Offensive coach brings Player Z off of the bench to hit for Player A but he does not report her to the umpire. As an astute scorekeeper, I know that this is the incorrect batter. Batter/Player Z grounds-out so I do not mention anything. Player Z stays in the game and plays defense for Player A, still not reported as a substitute.

1. If Player Z participates in a defensive play that results in an out, can I appeal that Player Z is an illegal player?

2. When Player Z comes up for her next at-bat, still unreported, and she gets a hit, can I appeal a BOO even though I declined to do so when she had her first at-bat?

You would still be able to point out she is an unreported sub at that time and, similar to BOO, she'd be out and any runners would have to return.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

After reading 7-2D, I'm not sure what part you might think is worded unclearly.

The compound conditionals in #2 and #3 are complex and, as written, can be interpreted multiple ways.

A. A straight-forward reading of #2 with normal logical operator precedence is obviously incorrect.

- (After the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat AND before a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter)
- OR before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left left fair territory
- OR on the last play of the game, before the umpire leaves the field of play.

B. A straight-forward reading assuming the OR's are evaluated together is problematic as the pitch stipulation is true at ends of half-innings and games.

After the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat AND:
- before a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter
- OR before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory
- OR on the last play of the game, before the umpire leaves the field of play.

C. Sounds like the interpretation you stated handles that by making the 3 stipulations mutually exclusive situations, however there's nothing indicating that in the rule. I see it in R/S #1, but that's technically not in the rules. It's also problematic by saying inning instead of half-inning.

After the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat AND:
- during a half-inning, before a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter
- OR after a half-inning that isn't the end of the game, before the pitcher and all infielders have...
- OR on the last play of the game, before the umpire leaves the field of play

D. My interpretation is based on how the rules handle appeals in Rule 8's Effect for Section 7F-I and protests in 9-1A.

After the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat
- AND before a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter
- AND before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left left fair territory
- AND on the last play of the game, before the umpire leaves the field of play.

Our interpretations differ on the last play of the game as yours relieves the defense of the responsibility to remain in fair territory and generally gives them additional time to make their appeal. IMO, those concessions aren't appropriate.

The interpretations of #2 and #3 should work together so they're mutually exclusive (i.e. only one is applicable to a situation) - they don't/aren't because both specify "or on the last play of the game...". There's really no reason to include the end of game stipulation in #3 since it doesn't affect the outcome. Furthermore, ASA should stipulate it once in appeal's definition instead of throughout the rules.

I'd like to see official clarification(s)/ruling(s) that support your interpretation and/or explain how 7-2D is applied.

 

[wvanalmsick]

I apologize for the incorrect terms. What I thought would be interchangeable term was a bad assumption.

I hereby give myself 50 lashings with a wet noodle.