Dropped 3rd srike-fielder set up in fair or foul?

[cz fastpitch fan]

After a dropped third strike, the catcher's first desire should be to tag the batter while in the box or right at the plate area. However, sometimes the situation just simply requires a throw to 1B. There are some coaches (myself included) who believe that a ball in foul territory should be thrown in FOUL territory with the fielder at 1B setting up way in advance (so as not to even remotely obstruct the runner) with her RIGHT foot on the ORANGE bag.
Conversely, if the ball is in fair, or directly in front of the catcher and setting up in fair territory is quicker than setting up in foul, then the fielder covering 1B should set up in FAIR territory with the LEFT foot on the WHITE bag, making a foot change & striding after recognizing the direction of the ball.
I ran into some catchers who have been taught to step into fair territory for all dropped third strike balls, and that got me to thinking how much time that would take when that happens with a ball that is far in foul territory.

I researched this a couple years ago in the ASA rule book, and the 1B player absolutely IS permitted to establish herself in foul territory on the orange bag to wait for a throw in foul from the catcher. Again, this is something that needs to be taught to the first basemen so they know to get there far in advance or risk having an obstruction call by the ump.
I went through this exercise because the old NSA rule book lacked clarity on this matter (back when NSA had more presence here in Ohio). At the time, the NSA book only clearly permitted the fielder to use the orange bag in the event an errant throw took the fielder there.


Any other input on this?

 

[BretMan2]

There are a couple of cases where the defense may legally use the colored base to make the play and this is one of them- when the throw is coming from the foul side of the first base line.

I know that ASA has tried to come up with some double first base rules that work in the "real world" and prevent collisions. They make exceptions on a play like this one, or for errant throws, or if the fielder has fielded the ball in foul territory. Forcing the defense to use the white base on these plays might actually make it more dangerous, as it would require the fielder to cross over in front of the runner near the base.

It's been a few years since I worked NSA ball. I'm thinking that they've clarified some of these plays in recent years. Some of these sanctioning bodies started out with the rule being that the defense must ALWAYS use the white base and the runner must ALWAYS use the colored base- no exceptions. From there the rule has evolved to include a few times when the players can use either base.

So, if the defense does legally set up on the colored base, what is the runner supposed to do?

In these cases the runner MAY use either base, but they're not required to switch over just because the defense did. In these cases, the three-foot running lane essentially becomes a six-foot running lane, three-feet wide on either side of the foul line. The runner can be in either side of it to avoid an interference call.

 

[Fairman]

What is the penalty when the double base is not used properly by either offense or defense?
I don't think the rule has any penalty attached to it.

If the defense doesn't use the white bag and causes a collision what benefit devolves to the offense?
If the offense runs over the first basemen at the white bag what happens to the runner?

 

[BretMan2]

What is the penalty when the double base is not used properly by either offense or defense?
I don't think the rule has any penalty attached to it.

If the defense doesn't use the white bag and causes a collision what benefit devolves to the offense?
If the offense runs over the first basemen at the white bag what happens to the runner?

There are a few possible outcomes here.

If the player uses the wrong base, then it's treated the same as if they missed the base. For instance, if the fielder uses the colored base when not entitled to, then their tag of the base is moot. It would be just like if there was only one base and they tagged the ground away from the base- no tag.

Also, if the fielder is using the wrong base and it impedes the runner, then you can have an obstruction call and the runner would be safe.

If the runner collides with the fielder on the white base, then it is interference. The runner would be out.

If the runner tags the white base when not allowed to, then it is treated the same as if she missed the base entirely. The runner would be subject to a missed base appeal by the defense. If appealed before the runner comes back and touches either base, then the runner is out.

 

[krrcoach]

There are a couple of cases where the defense may legally use the colored base to make the play and this is one of them- when the throw is coming from the foul side of the first base line.

I know that ASA has tried to come up with some double first base rules that work in the "real world" and prevent collisions. They make exceptions on a play like this one, or for errant throws, or if the fielder has fielded the ball in foul territory. Forcing the defense to use the white base on these plays might actually make it more dangerous, as it would require the fielder to cross over in front of the runner near the base.

It's been a few years since I worked NSA ball. I'm thinking that they've clarified some of these plays in recent years. Some of these sanctioning bodies started out with the rule being that the defense must ALWAYS use the white base and the runner must ALWAYS use the colored base- no exceptions. From there the rule has evolved to include a few times when the players can use either base.

So, if the defense does legally set up on the colored base, what is the runner supposed to do?

In these cases the runner MAY use either base, but they're not required to switch over just because the defense did. In these cases, the three-foot running lane essentially becomes a six-foot running lane, three-feet wide on either side of the foul line. The runner can be in either side of it to avoid an interference call.

FYI, in the OHSAA rules meeting for coaches, this was not addressed as an acceptable use of the safety bag. I have always known this to be accepted in the summer, but as high school works to add the safety bases into the rules, they have not addressed this situation...yet. I am sure you can understand what my concerns are.

 

[BretMan2]

FYI, in the OHSAA rules meeting for coaches, this was not addressed as an acceptable use of the safety bag. I have always known this to be accepted in the summer, but as high school works to add the safety bases into the rules, they have not addressed this situation...yet. I am sure you can understand what my concerns are.

Any specific part of the rule that you don't feel was addressed?

Here are the NFHS double base rules, copied directly from the rule book. I believe that all of the points I mentioned are covered here:

Rule 8-10:

ART. 1 . . .The defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion when a play is being made on the batter-runner.

PENALTIES (Art. 1):

1. The batter-runner is out when there is a play being made at first base and the batter-runner touches only the white portion provided the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to touch the white or colored base.

2. The batter-runner is out for interference when there is a force play and the batter-runner touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white. See Rule 8-2-5Penalty.

3. Obstruction is called on the defense when there is a force play on the batter-runner, who touches only the colored portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball, while also on the colored portion. See 8-4-3b Penalty.

ART. 2 . . .The offense or defense may use either the white or colored portion:

a. On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base.

b. On an errant throw pulling the defense off the base into foul ground.

c. When the defensive player uses the colored portion of the double base, the batter-runner can run in fair territory when the throw is coming from the foul side of first base, and if hit by the thrown ball, it is not interference. If intentional interference is ruled, the runner is out.

ART. 3 . . .The offense or defense may touch the white or colored base:

a. On a fair ball hit to the outfield with no play being attempted or when the runner is returning to first base.

b. On a fly ball tag-up play.

c. (F.P.) On an attempted pick-off play.

d. On a base on balls.

 

[krrcoach]

Below is what was reviewed in the rules meeting that the coaches must review. I am aware of what the rules are, but my concern is the coaches that are not familiar with play with double first base and possibly umpires as well. I would have liked to see the that included as exceptions in the rules meeting.

 

[Fairman]

Bretman,

Maybe a third of our high school games are played with the double bag.
When something happens at first, the umps usually treat it as a 'no call' and we play on.
I'll have go out have a discussion (or two) this season.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[BretMan2]

Below is what was reviewed in the rules meeting that the coaches must review. I am aware of what the rules are, but my concern is the coaches that are not familiar with play with double first base and possibly umpires as well. I would have liked to see the that included as exceptions in the rules meeting.

As long as the people at the rules meeting realize that a Power Point presentation will only be a brief, condensed overview of the rules, not a comprehensive, all-encompassing, point-by-point recap of every rule in the book, then maybe they'll take the next step and get their nose in the rule book to see what it says there...as, apparently, you have, Kerry!

 

[cz fastpitch fan]

Well I guess that about clears that up.
OK, so coaches...we all see how clear this is. Plays from foul are permitted when the ball is in foul on dropped 3rd strike.
The fielder is allowed to use the safety bag & not only is this a quicker play to execute, it is also safer for all players!