Is Ohio Travel Ball Watered Down

[Converse Kid]

In your opinion, is Ohio a state that is watered down with mediocre travel teams? Go to the tryouts list and there seems to be tons of teams out there and am sure many more not posting on the web. I frequently read comments from others who feel it is a growing problem in our state yet I also hear that there seems to be a decline in girls playing softball. Which is it? Does anybody know how many teams there is in the state? Better yet, how many teams are there today versus say 10 or 20 years ago? My stance is that the more teams our state has, we are much better off. It keeps kids active, teaches teamwork, creates friendships, and surely helps out Local economies such as hotels and restaurants. With so many tournaments Ohio has to offer, teams can enter and compete at the proper level to challenge the girls. Watered down is such an ugly term yet I feel it's essential to help build and maintain the sport in our state.

 

[alborules]

Overall, I think having more travel teams is great. It offers the travel experience to more young ladies that want more than Rec. ball.

This question usually pops up when a high level team runs into a less experienced team or two in a tournament and run rules those teams. I think that there needs to be an understanding by coaches, parents, and organizations of the different levels of teams:

1- There are teams at many levels like the premier teams that don't play much in the state and travel to the best tournaments in the country, weekly, and will play at multiple National Championships
2- There are elite level teams that go to all the top tournaments in the state, weekly, to qualify for a National or Regional Championship.
3- There are good teams that go to some of the top tournaments in the state but play mostly local and maybe qualify for a Regional Championship.
4- There are other teams that choose their tournaments to avoid any elite or premier teams so that they may be competitive, they wish there were more "B" qualifiers so that they could have a shot at an out of town Regional Championship.
5- There are local travel teams that enter several tournaments where the above teams play, and don't do well but are happy they gave it a shot.

There are many travel teams due to so many young ladies, and their parents, wanting to be involved in a more competitive environment than Rec ball. More demand equals more teams. There is a fit for nearly every young lady to experience some form of travel ball. The problem some of these teams have is not having enough experienced and educated coaching. So I think the coaching pool in travel ball can't keep up with the demand. The coaches need to be able to: understand the team's talent level, develop their skills continuously, and get the team into appropriate tournaments. Perhaps tournament directors could help by offering more "multi level" tournaments with 2 levels per age group.

There is no shame in seeking tournaments that don't draw the top teams if you can't compete. There is shame in a coach, parent, or organization believing that less talented teams have no business existing. That type of snobbish attitude pretty much goes against what we coaches are trying to teach your daughters about integrity and sportsmanship.

Allan Abel
Wizards Nemesis

 

[okiedad1961]

Converse, Agree w/ your giving all girls a chance at all levels thinking,My question to the forum is: Does it hurt us nationallly at ASA/USA Gold level tourneys because of the dilution at the higher levels of play.Lets say we combined 2 Laser teams and a Outlaw premier team of there best players could/would we fair better at those levels?(Chose those two because there local no offense to anyone).

 

[spartansd]

IMO the number of "Elite Team" is directly proportional to the number of elite pitcher you have.

It really comes down to pitching.

So to answer your question from above. I do not think combining 3 teams would make 1 team that would do better at Nationals by default. Team chemistry, ability to manufacture runs become crucial to winning at the highest level. And usually a bit of luck. You go to any major event and 6 of the final 8 teams will have the top 6 pitchers in the tournament. And usually the final 4 will have the 4 best pitchers remaining.

You can coach up defense, so most high level teams have fairly equal defense. But it is the pitching talent that separates the teams. And great pitching shuts down hitting.

 

[okiedad1961]

Spartan , That may be the case at the younger levels 14u down ,but that's not the case on up.The better hitters and well coached ladies will prevail .You can't score runs w/ pitching Imop

 

[The Dude]

To answer your question, yes. But I am glad the girls have a place to play, for those that want to. If it were really the true elite only playing travel ball, where would the other 90% play competitively? A lot of the girls left out would be really good ball players. Not to mention what competitive team sports do for a young lady's self-esteem.

 

[Fastpfan14]

Is Ohio Travel Ball watered down? I guess the answer is in the eye of the beholder, if you are on an elite team or a local team. But let us assume that the state if full of talented girls who want to play at an elite level.

Is the perception of being watered down, really being caused by "COST"? For higher level travel ball, the parents are paying for the teem fees, and most likely 2, 3, or more fund raisers on top. If the individual girl is playing at a higher level, they are probably receiving individual lessons for hitting, pitching, catching, etc. Many may also be attending camps.

There are individual tournament costs, such as admission, and food, split between the parents for the season. If you are spending at least 2 weekends away from the local area, there are hotel, food, and entertainment costs to be paid. If your team makes it to Nationals, that's at least a week of such costs.

Individual equipment adds up quickly, a $400 game bat here, a cage bat there, $90 cleats all the time and more than one pair a season if she's a pitcher, etc., etc., etc.

Oh yes, how about gas for the SUV, all year long, going to practice, lessons, tournaments, etc.

The better performing a team, the more likely it is also participating in some Fall, Winter and Spring events, over and above the Summer schedule.

What I driving at, is that it is really easy to get to a $5,000 figure to play above average fastpitch. If you have a sister in the organization, and it seems to me that many of the girls do, the figure can quickly reach $10,000 per year per family. That is a lot of disposable income. Those that can do it are lucky, but many can't.

I think the talent is there, but it all can't be realized, because the cost for many is too great for them to participate at a higher level.

 

[GeneralsDad]

I don't believe it's watered down. I believe Ohio had around 5 or 6 teams finish in the top 40 at ASA/USA, including a top 10 finish, and the national champion at 16U. I believe there was a top 10 finish at PGF nationals as well. That's not too hateful. I do agree there are many teams that span a large difference in talent. Simply put, there is a place for everyone. As far as what makes an elite team, I don't agree that it's how much disposable income you have. It honestly comes down to how hard a kid is willing to work on their own. When you have girls busting their butt year round, they will eventually become an elite player, although it may not be on your team. I will admit it can be expensive going to lessons and traveling, but there are ways to get around that if you are willing to work hard. I know many families that have no problem throwing an extra girl in the car or hotel room with them. I also know a few awesome instructors that will bend over backwards to help an athlete that busts her ass. The opportunities are out there, but so are excuses.

 

[wow]

Great post alborules! You spelled this out almost perfect. The one point, which needs to be stressed, is to know where you want to play ( which turneys) and then know the level of talent you want to play with. if you can answer those questions its much easier to find the right fit.

I think no matter if you have 100 or 1000 teams the level of elite is small either way. The best kids will gravitate towards the best teams.

As long as Ohio is representing ASA/USA, PGF and others I cant say its "water down"

 

[cobb_of_fury]

I think it's funny that this keeps coming up all the time.

the answer is YES at any given moment Very good teams are watered down by bad players and at the same time there are Very good players on bad teams - And YES if you could take all the best players in Ohio and put the best 11 on one team, it would be a GREAT team and would be able to rival CALI or TX teams, No doubt.
BUT... (and this is a big BUT)...
Those girls choose teams for reasons other than wanting to be on a singular powerhouse team.
Girls in Calcutta don't necessarily want to travel to Grove City or Springfield to play for a team. They have friends and other activities and they LOVE their current team. "I get to ..."Pitch", "Play third", "Shag fly balls", "bat 4th"...Here" "And the price is right" and "We don't practice on Tuesday nights so I can watch Pretty Little Liars..." and "Our facility is right next to that Starbucks where that really cute boy works" and "I look TOTALY On Point in my Teal and Puse uniform"

I digress... But the point is;
We are talking about kids who think they are having fun and playing games (Little do they know)
Typically this problem sorts itself out by 16U when most of the girls left playing know if they are playing for scholarship money or just for fun.

I know it's frustrating to go to a tournament and 10 run teams or go and be 10 runned but until there is a system that distributes talent equitably throughout the whole state that's just how it is.

If tomorrow we eliminated half the fastpitch teams in ohio - The remaining teams wouldn't necessarly be better, There would just be a lot more soxxer players in Ohio.

And by the way...Stop worrying about how we compare to other places -Cause the places that matter don't care how they compare. They just play!

 

[BulldawgsDirector]

I'm glad the girls don't waste their time worrying about all the issues adults seem to have with the sport they love to play.

 

[harley78]

In your opinion, is Ohio a state that is watered down with mediocre travel teams? Go to the tryouts list and there seems to be tons of teams out there and am sure many more not posting on the web. I frequently read comments from others who feel it is a growing problem in our state yet I also hear that there seems to be a decline in girls playing softball. Which is it? Does anybody know how many teams there is in the state? Better yet, how many teams are there today versus say 10 or 20 years ago? My stance is that the more teams our state has, we are much better off. It keeps kids active, teaches teamwork, creates friendships, and surely helps out Local economies such as hotels and restaurants. With so many tournaments Ohio has to offer, teams can enter and compete at the proper level to challenge the girls. Watered down is such an ugly term yet I feel it's essential to help build and maintain the sport in our state.

Absolutely it is but on the other hand if you want to play more competitive games than you join a travel team , But what is the real definition of travel ball , do you play a couple of games out of state or all you'r games out of state against teams from Florida , Texas , California and of course Arizona were they can play year round outside if they want , Those are the real talented softball players with the exception of a few from Ohio and any other northern state.

 

[jmason]

Overall, I think having more travel teams is great. It offers the travel experience to more young ladies that want more than Rec. ball.

This question usually pops up when a high level team runs into a less experienced team or two in a tournament and run rules those teams. I think that there needs to be an understanding by coaches, parents, and organizations of the different levels of teams:

1- There are teams at many levels like the premier teams that don't play much in the state and travel to the best tournaments in the country, weekly, and will play at multiple National Championships
2- There are elite level teams that go to all the top tournaments in the state, weekly, to qualify for a National or Regional Championship.
3- There are good teams that go to some of the top tournaments in the state but play mostly local and maybe qualify for a Regional Championship.
4- There are other teams that choose their tournaments to avoid any elite or premier teams so that they may be competitive, they wish there were more "B" qualifiers so that they could have a shot at an out of town Regional Championship.
5- There are local travel teams that enter several tournaments where the above teams play, and don't do well but are happy they gave it a shot.

There are many travel teams due to so many young ladies, and their parents, wanting to be involved in a more competitive environment than Rec ball. More demand equals more teams. There is a fit for nearly every young lady to experience some form of travel ball. The problem some of these teams have is not having enough experienced and educated coaching. So I think the coaching pool in travel ball can't keep up with the demand. The coaches need to be able to: understand the team's talent level, develop their skills continuously, and get the team into appropriate tournaments. Perhaps tournament directors could help by offering more "multi level" tournaments with 2 levels per age group.

There is no shame in seeking tournaments that don't draw the top teams if you can't compete. There is shame in a coach, parent, or organization believing that less talented teams have no business existing. That type of snobbish attitude pretty much goes against what we coaches are trying to teach your daughters about integrity and sportsmanship.

Allan Abel
Wizards Nemesis

Allen- excellent post! My thoughts are that there seem to be more and more teams especially at the 12U level. Primarily made up of girls wanting to get involved who haven't played Travel Ball before.

 

[weekendsoftball]

It may be little watered down but is that really a bad thing? In my eyes, the more girls that are playing softball, the better it is for the sport....regardless of the quality of it. Teams just need to be sure to get in the appropriate tournaments while still challenging themselves. Thats why we have OFC to view team lists.

 

[daboss]

Overall, I think having more travel teams is great. It offers the travel experience to more young ladies that want more than Rec. ball.

This question usually pops up when a high level team runs into a less experienced team or two in a tournament and run rules those teams. I think that there needs to be an understanding by coaches, parents, and organizations of the different levels of teams:

1- There are teams at many levels like the premier teams that don't play much in the state and travel to the best tournaments in the country, weekly, and will play at multiple National Championships
2- There are elite level teams that go to all the top tournaments in the state, weekly, to qualify for a National or Regional Championship.
3- There are good teams that go to some of the top tournaments in the state but play mostly local and maybe qualify for a Regional Championship.
4- There are other teams that choose their tournaments to avoid any elite or premier teams so that they may be competitive, they wish there were more "B" qualifiers so that they could have a shot at an out of town Regional Championship.
5- There are local travel teams that enter several tournaments where the above teams play, and don't do well but are happy they gave it a shot.

There are many travel teams due to so many young ladies, and their parents, wanting to be involved in a more competitive environment than Rec ball. More demand equals more teams. There is a fit for nearly every young lady to experience some form of travel ball. The problem some of these teams have is not having enough experienced and educated coaching. So I think the coaching pool in travel ball can't keep up with the demand. The coaches need to be able to: understand the team's talent level, develop their skills continuously, and get the team into appropriate tournaments. Perhaps tournament directors could help by offering more "multi level" tournaments with 2 levels per age group.

There is no shame in seeking tournaments that don't draw the top teams if you can't compete. There is shame in a coach, parent, or organization believing that less talented teams have no business existing. That type of snobbish attitude pretty much goes against what we coaches are trying to teach your daughters about integrity and sportsmanship.

Allan Abel
Wizards Nemesis

This post in response to the thread started by converse needs to be highlighted for national attention. Great answer!

 

[CARDS]

Alans post is right on

I would say the softball landscape has changed dramatically over the past 15 years.

I think if you look at Ohio softball the top teams/organizations compete well outside of the state especially vs. states with similar softball demographics. If your measurement is what Ohio does vs. states with many more teams like Georgia, FLA. TX and CAL. Ohio teams success rate would be as good if not better than the rest of the country vs. these powerhouse states.

Some changes I have seen over the years are:
More Ohio players leaving in state teams for some of the national super teams.
Older age teams drifting away from playing for a national championship instead building teams for summer and fall college showcase events.
Teams that are still playing for a championship now are divided between several sanctioning bodies, ASA/USA, PGF (Top tier event) then ASA, USSSA, ISA, USFA, NSA, or the many buy in world series available tied into vacation packages and I like a lot of options for teams but it does make it hard to find out exactly how Ohio is doing at all levels.

When we started back in the early 2000s there were not a lot of options ASA or USSSA. There was nowhere near the amount of private instruction for players. There was more players playing recreational ball than travel softball.

In contrast today there are a lot of recreational organizations dropping softball for lack of numbers. Now these ladies if they want to play need to find a select team that fits their families needs. When they cannot find a team generally a parent will try to start one and most really do not know how to go about it, sanction the team or how to build a schedule that is effective for their team and families so, the team ends up falling apart and the cycle starts again.
Tournament directors also are not working as hard as they use too (with the exception of a couple). Proper recording of tournament results and identifying of teams A/B no longer happens to the extent it once did. This could be a result of the increase on the number of teams, changes in directors, start up sanctioning bodies and coaches not sanctioning properly.

 

[Lenski65]

In contrast today there are a lot of recreational organizations dropping softball for lack of numbers. Now these ladies if they want to play need to find a select team that fits their families needs. When they cannot find a team generally a parent will try to start one and most really do not know how to go about it, sanction the team or how to build a schedule that is effective for their team and families so, the team ends up falling apart and the cycle starts again.

Decrease of rec softball programs + New startup travel teams + new team regurgitation = Yes, travel/select ball is watered down.

 

[Converse Kid]

Anyone want to take a guess at how many teams there are in the state? How many of those would you consider Elite?

 

[alborules]

Anyone want to take a guess at how many teams there are in the state? How many of those would you consider Elite?

Myself and Eric Kunkleman of the Wizards were putting together a database of known travel teams in Ohio and Southern Michigan to invite to tournaments and/or scrimmages. We have about 115 well represented/known to us organizations and more continue to be found each week. All of these organizations have at least 4 teams and some as many as 28 teams. The number of teams in most all of the organizations drop off at 16u so much, that 90% of the teams we have in the database are 10u to 14u. So, I'll make an educated guess on this.

In any given age group in the state of Ohio there are approximately 200 travel teams, since many separate odd year and even year teams there would be more teams than organizations. In my opinion, maybe 10 of those teams would be of "elite" caliber able to qualify for ASA/USA or PGF Nationals. Of those 10teams, maybe 2 could compete well (top 25) at the national level.

Allan Abel

 

[wow]

In any given age group in the state of Ohio there are approximately 200 travel teams, since many separate odd year and even year teams there would be more teams than organizations. In my opinion, maybe 10 of those teams would be of "elite" caliber able to qualify for ASA/USA or PGF Nationals. Of those 10teams, maybe 2 could compete well (top 25) at the national level.

Allan Abel

I think the numbers are higher than 2 in the top 25. In asa/usa. 5 Ohio teams finished in the top 25 in 2014.. And at more qualified, stingrays, cincy static, lasers 14u. so I think there is more top talent out there. If out of 200 + teams, 10-15% of Ohio teams are playing ASA/USA that's impressive.


Top 25 finishes in 2014
14U- 25th place Ohio Classics 99 Ohio ASA 4 - 2 Newark, OH
12u-13th OHIO STORM 01 Mount Vernon, OH 3-2
17th GRAND SLAM xx, OH 3-2
25th OHIO HAWKS 01 ROBINSON Middletown, OH 2-2
10U- 9th Sundogs (Williams)