Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching scholarships

[default]

I was not there so this is just a hypothesis.

Ponder these numbers
11-0
8-0
12-0
4-1
10-0
4-3
5-0
8-0

Above is the score of 8 games, six of these games would have been won with one run by the winning team. I am sure there was some good defense but there most definitely was some dominate pitching when a team gives up only four runs in an entire tournament.

How important do you think the pitcher/pitchers are to the team above? Some believe that hitters are catching up to dominate pitchers with lessons, the move to 43' feet and etc. I believe hitters are getting better each year as well but this case study makes me wonder how much hitters are gaining on pitchers. In the scenario above there could not have been many hard hit balls for the position players to make a play/error on. 4 Runs in 8 games is only .5 runs by the opposing team per game on average.

Think that is not the case for high level travel ball or at the older age groups? The team that won all the above games is the Orange County Batbusters. The tournament: THE 16U USA/ASA National Championship!

If I had to bet our whole season on one player, it would be a darn good pitcher/s.

JMO

The team that "has it all" usually "wins it all". High school is a good example. Without checking past state champions in Ohio, I'm guessing every championship team had a dominating pitcher with a supporting cast of at least 5 or 6 consistently good hitters. Lacking in dominant pitching OR 5-6 hitters makes for a shortened season. A HS team may have a dominant pitcher, but lack of hitting is the ever-present curse. Conversely, losing 25 - 24 is still a loss, with obviously weak pitching on both sides. Rarely do you find a HS team with great hitting down through the lineup, unless that team has a history of recruiting players... and that's more of an old wive's tale than anything.

Hitting IS getting better. But IMO, it's more like the dedicated kids who already were decent are the ones improving the most. There will always be the "status quo" group that refuses to put in any extra time. And it's NOT the money holding them back, it's lack of a disciplined work ethic.

Ask a college coach what they consider to be the most important recruiting spot on their team. It's pretty much a given that the bulk of the scholarship $$ goes there.

 

[default]

Hopefully every player on a team is getting private instruction, hitting,catching, speed training, etc.

You got it! Everybody should get a discount hahaha. I know many many hitters work just as hard and who spend just as much money on coaches as pitchers. The point of the "scholarship" is geared toward just landing the top pitchers.

Maybe catchers should be the ones getting the scholarships, or the kid on your team with the 3 $300 bats hahahaha

 

[default]

Just for comparison...Here are the 25 highest paid baseball players in 2010. The highest is a position player and 8 out of the top 10 are position players, with 16 out of the top 25 being position players. It pays to hit the long ball, or play in NY.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries/top50

Now if your playing football...You want to be a quarterback.
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/top25.aspx?year=2009

The battle continues!

MLB pitchers work every fourth our fifth day where as a strong SB pitcher can pitch many games a day in consecutive days. Let's look at professional softball player salaries and I bet pitchers get paid the most!?? Anyone have data?

 

[default]

Can someone pull the college scholarship percent given to pitchers.. I'll bet it is over the top...

 

[default]

Can someone pull the college scholarship percent given to pitchers.. I'll bet it is over the top...

"Ask a college coach what they consider to be the most important recruiting spot on their team. It's pretty much a given that the bulk of the scholarship $$ goes there." (Hint, hint...)

You'll be hard pressed to get actual data from coaches about the $$ amount of a scholarship, but you can count on the DI pitchers getting anywhere from a full scholarship to a full ride. Not sure about DII, but I'll bet it's the lion's share.

There will certainly be the stud position players who will also be nicely rewarded, but pitchers fill the highest percentage. College baseball isn't apples to apples, because many DI baseball programs carry as many as 15 pitchers on staff. If all of those pitchers got the lion's share, you'd be asking position players to essentially be walk-ons. That budget scenario carries over to mlb.

 

[default]

Many good arguments here for both sides. I know what you`re saying LADY KNIGHTS, all the girls on the team are important or we wouldn`t need them. So many girls are getting a lot of hitting instruction, ( at a great expense just like the pitchers ), a great hitter and/or a great pitcher can make or break a game. I really agree with FRONT ROW as far as when my DD decided to become a pitcher, we took on the added responsability for the cost just like all the parents out there with DD`s getting hitting instruction, speed and agility training and anything else involved with softball.

 

[default]

I wonder how much we have spent on pitching lessons over the years--DD was asked to pitch because she was strongest and fastest on team, and she took off...Also play OF. Reason for this-she had an ERA of .37, and usually got run-ruled in travel ball because we wanted to give the other team 8 outs every inning. Strong pitching w/poor fielding=losing, and poor pitching w/strong feilding=losing. I also know that only four girls on the team went to any "extra" hitting instruction, and believe me, it showed, as we probably averaged less than two runs per game.

 

[default]

My niece is a pitcher and I would never want her to take anything that could jeopardize her future chances to play and attain a full-ride. NCAA improper benefit rules are insanely ridiculous and complicated in my humble opinion. Not worth the risk at all.

 

[default]

Well here is where things become a slippery slope. You may be starting down the path to the free agency of 10 and 12 year olds. One org. offers $100 discount, another org. says hey come play for free. Third org. says, hey play for free and get a travel stipend. Now your paying players to play for your org. (for the record, I DO NOT think the Hawks are in anyway paying players with their scholarships. I'm just saying how things can spiral out of control if some unscrupulous folks get involved.)

what about the proverbial, "take my DD to nationals" scholarship fund?

 

[default]

The simple answer to our program is that we lower the fee that a Hawks pitcher has to participate and expect that they in return invest the savings in their pitching lessons.

We have their instructor go to http://www.ohiohawks.com/instructors/ and fill out a progress report on a monthly basis. Should the pitcher not take lessons they will be required to pay the full fee amount that a position player does.

Scholarship is a poor word to describe it, it is in fact a different fee structure...

 

[default]

bottom line is this can moneys given by a team to play for them effect collages and monies given by them(collages).From reading what I have the answer is yes so why offer it?Some on here say it wont but that is there interpitation of the rules.Is it worth the risk going into this gray area.To save a hundred dollars or two????? NO JMHO

See the definitions listed above for scholarship and then you should understand that not all scholarships involve money. The Hawks pitching scholarship is like Doug says and we publicly disclose as a fee reduction for pitchers. Not because other position players are not important but because a solid pitcher can make it better for the whole team. IOO

We as an organization can choose to set our fees at any rate we deem fair to cover our cost and even tier that for some players to pay less than others. There is no "interpretation" needed as we have also had correspondence with the NCAA and the OHSAA before we launched the pitching scholarship program. We have worked with other OHIO organizations that have or are considering offering a similar program in an attempt to share how our program works.

Call it unfair to other players but please do not insinuate that we are putting an athletes' amateur status in jeopardy with our pitching scholarship program/fee reduction.

 

[default]

I stick with my concerns no matter what it is termed. Preferential treatment is a violation of improper benefits. That is a fact. That to me is a scary area we would not want to navigate. If someone else chooses to I would not judge. Just too many worries for what we hope will be a huge payoff in her future. Once again I do not judge anyone just expressing my thoughts on it.

 

[default]

The simple answer to our program is that we lower the fee that a Hawks pitcher has to participate and expect that they in return invest the savings in their pitching lessons.

We have their instructor go to http://www.ohiohawks.com/instructors/ and fill out a progress report on a monthly basis. Should the pitcher not take lessons they will be required to pay the full fee amount that a position player does.

Scholarship is a poor word to describe it, it is in fact a different fee structure...

This is the best way to describe it. I think we all got hung up on the term "scholarship." If you think of it this way, it's really no different than lowering the fees for a family that has some financial struggles like the "no kid left behind program that was started on the OFC." Any of those kids that received help to pay for fees should not be in jeopardy, right?

Of course common sense goes out the window when dealing with OHSAA and NCAA guidelines.

 

[default]

This is the best way to describe it. I think we all got hung up on the term "scholarship." If you think of it this way, it's really no different than lowering the fees for a family that has some financial struggles like the "no kid left behind program that was started on the OFC." Any of those kids that received help to pay for fees should not be in jeopardy, right?

Of course common sense goes out the window when dealing with OHSAA and NCAA guidelines.

Agreed, the term scholarship is used loosely on this site with travel teams.

Most do not understand the implications that a single word can make to a prospective senior during their status eval. or to parents come IRS time .

Sounds like they have went through the right channels for their program (NCAA) and got the documentation to make sure all is good. Since the NCAA is the ultimate decider if parents use the NCAA http://eligibilitycenter.org/ECWR2/NCAA_EMS/NCAA.html the parent/player should have no surprises.

 

[default]

From the NCAA Clearinghouse registration that we filled out, this is something we would have had to report. It specifically asks if any compensation was received, which included reduction on fees/expenses. Whether it makes someone ineligible or not, I do not know, but it definitely SPECIFICALLY asks this question and you have to supply the numbers.

 

[default]

See the definitions listed above for scholarship and then you should understand that not all scholarships involve money. The Hawks pitching scholarship is like Doug says and we publicly disclose as a fee reduction for pitchers. Not because other position players are not important but because a solid pitcher can make it better for the whole team. IOO

We as an organization can choose to set our fees at any rate we deem fair to cover our cost and even tier that for some players to pay less than others. There is no "interpretation" needed as we have also had correspondence with the NCAA and the OHSAA before we launched the pitching scholarship program. We have worked with other OHIO organizations that have or are considering offering a similar program in an attempt to share how our program works.

Call it unfair to other players but please do not insinuate that we are putting an athletes' amateur status in jeopardy with our pitching scholarship program/fee reduction.

.NCAA asks about compensation a scholarship is compensation..It just depends on who is looking at it at ncaa.If it doesnt matter why would the NCAA ask about it? Look at the irs's definition of scholarship.
Perhaps you should call it something else?And save possible grief

 

[default]

From the NCAA Clearinghouse registration that we filled out, this is something we would have had to report. It specifically asks if any compensation was received, which included reduction on fees/expenses. Whether it makes someone ineligible or not, I do not know, but it definitely SPECIFICALLY asks this question and you have to supply the numbers.

Im glad someone else gets the point

 

[default]

Yahtzee:

Are you saying that you have it in writing from the NCAA that your reduced fee program does not affect college eligibility? Because I would be surprised if the NCAA were willing to commit that to writing. If you do have it in writing, hard to see how your organization can be criticized on that ground.

As for the whole concept . . . I'm a pitcher's mom and we dropped a TON of money into her pitching (as well as hundreds and hundreds of hours on the bucket for Ted), but I'm still not sure whether I'm comfortable with the preferential approach for pitchers. Why couldn't other players get a report from their hitting coaches that would reduce their fees? Or agility coaches?

Whatever your conclusion on this question, you have to acknowledge that the Hawks organization has been very proactive in creating more competitive teams and giving fastpitch opportunities to young ladies.

 

[default]

Whatever your conclusion on this question, you have to acknowledge that the Hawks organization has been very proactive in creating more competitive teams and giving fastpitch opportunities to young ladies.[/QUOTE]


I agree they have created more teams.

 

[default]

I went contemplating on whether or not to comment on this thread. My dd's a pitcher, and my oldest a catcher. I've seen threads here on OFC that asked the question,

what would you have dominant hitter, stud pitcher, or all around great athlete

or

what is most important position in softball or something along those lines. Most agree it is the pitcher and catcher.

Now many may say I may be biased. But who gets pulled if a team is down in the 3rd inning? If a pitcher is off, does she get pulled? I have witnessed that several times, including my own dd and she deserved to be pulled. I have yet to witness a SS, CF, or a catcher pulled. Or I have yet to see the #4 batter being switched in the middle of the game.

Sure, everyone can say their dd spends just as much time if they are a SS practicing. I haven't seen too many fielding instructors here on OFC. I mainly see pitching, catching, and hitting.

I spend nearly 2 hours on the field, 1 hour to an hour and a half on pitching, the balance on fielding and hitting 3 days a week. 2 of the days is an hour of just pitching and hitting. However, the hardest worker happens to be the pitcher because she has to do all 3 whereas my oldest gets more breaks. To say that all get the same amount of work is not true.

Before we joined the Hawks, I thought it was awesome that they offered their pitchers the incentive. I really think it is great they also make their pitchers be held accountable. Even if my youngest wasn't a pitcher, I still think it would be a great idea. The reason, my oldest TRIED to be a pitcher. She pitched for a year at 11U at the rec level. She stated it was too much work.

A stout defense helps out a pitcher, no doubt. But it is the pitcher who makes or break a game. She can always pitch around the big bats, but once again, she still has to hit that location. If not, there's another long drive to the outfield.

JMHO