Question for Bretman--umpire set up

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My question is about an umpire behind the plate. In 2 tournies including today at laser's 12u I have seen the same umpire behind the plate. In both games I have seen this umpire tell a coach that their catcher was not allowed to move once they gave the pitcher the signal. He gets VERY close to the catcher and in both games I have watched the catcher give a signal and move to set up inside/outside for the pitch.

I was able to hear the umpire's explanation in both cases and it was once he set up if the cather moved it impeded his view of the pitch. I can not find anything in the ASA rulebook that says the catcher is not allowed to move once she issues the signal to the picher. I have also witnessed both coaches argue unsuccessfully the catchers right to reposition.

 

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What you were told is pure hogwash. Catcher's are free to move anywhere they wish, so long as they remain in the catcher's box and don't impede the batter.

Umpires should adjust to the catcher's positioning as best they can. I have worked behind catcher's whose positioning completely obscures the plate, then get upset when they don't get a call on a borderline pitch. I'll adjust as best as I can to work around them. I have let some catchers know that their positioning isn't helping out their cause any. They can do whatever they want with that information, but if they want to keep moving around or blocking the umpire's view there is absolutely no rule preventing that.

Umpires must adjust to the catcher, not the other way around!

 

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Speaking of positioning; runners on 1st and 2nd, two outs; base ump is in postion between SS and 3rd; little bloop between them, and runner on 2nd takes off and is easily making it to 3rd. SS makes great play and throws to 1st in a close play. Ball beats runner there, but 1st looks drawn off base. Runner called out by base-ump between SS and 3rd. First base coach appeals call to home ump that she pulled foot. Home ump says he was "running down 3rd baseline looking for call at 3rd", so he didn't see play. Huh???? What call??? So, all coaches agree 1st had foot off bag 6-8 inches (the opposing teams words, not mine). Unfortunately, we were down one at the time with a good hitter coming up. This guy had been umping for many years, and was honest when he said he wasn't looking, but ........

It just kinda stinks in a close game (we lost 3-2) that the ump can be out of position. Woulda been better if he said he saw it and she didn't pull foot. At least then it wouldn't have been an ump out of position.

 

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With runners on first and second, straight out of the umpire's manual, the plate umpire is responsible for the lead runner at third. He should be coming up the third base line in foul ground to cover a possible play there.

But...just because you're getting into the proper position for a possible play, that doesn't mean that you should just abandon everything else that is happening on the playing field! If you're keeping an eye on the ball, as you should, then you would easily see that the play isn't coming to third. You still have to keep an eye on the lead runner for any possible obstruction or a missed base and that is your primary responsibility. That does not prevent you from taking a glance at the play being made at first, just in case something unusual happens there.

Such are the limitations of the two-umpire system, when you have multiple runners and only two sets of eyes to watch them. If the plate umpire was totally focused on first base, I don't suppose you'd be too happy if F5 knocked down your runner rounding third or the runner totally missed third base and the umpire missed that!

When your partner asks you for help, you can only give him what you actually saw. On this one, it would be perfectly understandable if the plate umpire didn't get a good look at first base- even if it is nice if he did. By the book, he has other primary responsibilities that he should not abandon to watch other plays he's not responsible for.

 

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I think that is the dumbest thing EVER taught for umpire mechanics... the home plate umpire covering third... when runners are on first and second.

You got an umpire inbetween second and third already... why in the heck would the plate umpire cover third on a play.

I seen that same mechanics used in Columbus last year... plate umpire running up to third... ball over thrown and girl takes off for home .. throw.. play at home.. close play... and NO umpire there. He is still 3/4 up the third base line....LOL

If the umpires stayed in their position... field between second and third base and plate around the home area....... then the plate umpire could have seen the pulled foot at first.

Bretman, I know that is mechanics.. but that has to be the stupidest mechanics that is taught to umpires at classes.

 

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I think that is the dumbest thing EVER taught for umpire mechanics... the home plate umpire covering third... when runners are on first and second.

You got an umpire inbetween second and third already... why in the heck would the plate umpire cover third on a play.

I seen that same mechanics used in Columbus last year... plate umpire running up to third... ball over thrown and girl takes off for home .. throw.. play at home.. close play... and NO umpire there. He is still 3/4 up the third base line....LOL

If the umpires stayed in their position... field between second and third base and plate around the home area....... then the plate umpire could have seen the pulled foot at first.

Bretman, I know that is mechanics.. but that has to be the stupidest mechanics that is taught to umpires at classes.

I have to disagree QM. In a 2 ump system in this situation, the HP ump has the better look at 3B because he/she's in front of the play at 3rd and has a good angle to see 1st if the HP ump is positioned properly (down the line between 3rd and home). The base ump ends up behind the play at 3rd and the base can become obscured from view from this position. It happened to us this past weekend. The base ump made an out call at 3rd when our kid was waaay safe. I was coaching 1st. After time was called I approached the HP ump and said, "Blue, that's your call, not his." He looked at me like I had three heads then disagreed with me. I suggested he check his manual for future reference.

Len

 

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With runners on first and second, straight out of the umpire's manual, the plate umpire is responsible for the lead runner at third. He should be coming up the third base line in foul ground to cover a possible play there.

But...just because you're getting into the proper position for a possible play, that doesn't mean that you should just abandon everything else that is happening on the playing field! If you're keeping an eye on the ball, as you should, then you would easily see that the play isn't coming to third. You still have to keep an eye on the lead runner for any possible obstruction or a missed base and that is your primary responsibility. That does not prevent you from taking a glance at the play being made at first, just in case something unusual happens there.

Such are the limitations of the two-umpire system, when you have multiple runners and only two sets of eyes to watch them. If the plate umpire was totally focused on first base, I don't suppose you'd be too happy if F5 knocked down your runner rounding third or the runner totally missed third base and the umpire missed that!

When your partner asks you for help, you can only give him what you actually saw. On this one, it would be perfectly understandable if the plate umpire didn't get a good look at first base- even if it is nice if he did. By the book, he has other primary responsibilities that he should not abandon to watch other plays he's not responsible for.

Interesting - so you get two umps that are within 20 feet of third, and nobody watching first. And the one responsible for first is 60 feet away and can't see the base at all.

 

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Interesting - so you get two umps that are within 20 feet of third, and nobody watching first. And the one responsible for first is 60 feet away and can't see the base at all.

When you have more runners than umps in this situation, the umps' primary responsibility are the lead runners (HP ump has 3rd, base ump has 2nd as primary). Also, if both umps are positioned properly, they both should clearly see 1B.

Len

 

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You guys have to understand that the most important call is the runner closest to home plate. Having two sets of eyes on third base to get the front and back angle is great. Bretman is correct (as usual), the HP ump should not abandon is responsibility at first base looking for the pulled foot.

 

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I think that is the dumbest thing EVER taught for umpire mechanics... the home plate umpire covering third... when runners are on first and second.

Oh, I could probably think of at least one or two things that are dumber!

You got an umpire in between second and third already... why in the heck would the plate umpire cover third on a play.

Because the base umpire is supposed to be watching the play at first base and all of the trailing runners. If he's watching third, who's watching for obstruction or missed bases at first and second?

If the umpires stayed in their position... field between second and third base and plate around the home area....... then the plate umpire could have seen the pulled foot at first.

Keep in mind that the base umpire shouldn't just be planted in one spot between second and third. He should be gaining ground, distance and angle toward first for the call there.

If you think that the plate umpire should be watching first on this play, yet you think he should still be in the vicinity of the plate, then he is going to be making a long distance call from an inferior angle. And if he does move up the line toward first, he is abandoning the best position to make a possible call at home. If he moves out if front of the plate to watch first, then he is putting himself in the direct line of fire for any potential throw coming home.

I seen that same mechanics used in Columbus last year... plate umpire running up to third... ball over thrown and girl takes off for home .. throw.. play at home.. close play... and NO umpire there. He is still 3/4 up the third base line....LOL.

Then the umpire was out of position either because he ignored the standard mechanics or didn't hustle.

Standard mechanics tell the plate umpire to move up the foul line in fair territory, then cut into the diamond to make the call at third. If the ball gets past third, you return directly to the plate area, staying in fair ground and moving parallel to the line right back to the plate.

Umpire mechanics aren't just random opinions printed in a book. They are based on over a hundred years of the mechanics evolving and changing, designed to cover the most likely outcomes on most plays and provide the best coverage possible with a given number of umpires.

Sure, there are pros and cons to any mechanic. But the mechanics have been distilled over the years with that in mind. The pros and cons have already been weighed by those publishing the umpire manuals. There shouldn't be any need for each individual umpire to decide which mechanic works and which one doesn't.

Which do you think is most likely to cause the biggest problems in a game?

A) If both umpires are familiar with the same mechanics and stick with them, knowing which umpire is responsible for covering which plays?

B) If the umpires decide to deviate from the standard mechanics, switching coverages on a whim so that the responsibilty for calls will vary from play to play, using coverages that one umpire or the other may not be familiar with or has never used before?

 

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Speaking of positioning; runners on 1st and 2nd, two outs; base ump is in postion between SS and 3rd; little bloop between them, and runner on 2nd takes off and is easily making it to 3rd. SS makes great play and throws to 1st in a close play. Ball beats runner there, but 1st looks drawn off base. Runner called out by base-ump between SS and 3rd. First base coach appeals call to home ump that she pulled foot. Home ump says he was "running down 3rd baseline looking for call at 3rd", so he didn't see play. Huh???? What call??? So, all coaches agree 1st had foot off bag 6-8 inches (the opposing teams words, not mine). Unfortunately, we were down one at the time with a good hitter coming up. This guy had been umping for many years, and was honest when he said he wasn't looking, but ........

It just kinda stinks in a close game (we lost 3-2) that the ump can be out of position. Woulda been better if he said he saw it and she didn't pull foot. At least then it wouldn't have been an ump out of position.

This play was in our game against BH '97. I think Tod was being conservative when he said our 1st baseman was 6-8 inches away from the bag - it was more like 18"!!!!

Further, in the 2 ump system w/ a runner of first & the field ump stationed between 2nd & 3rd. It is almost impossible for the field ump to call a check swing strike based on his angle. It would have to be more than a 3/4 swing for him/her to see which in most cases the home plate ump sees anyways. We had a few of these this weekend at Laser's - I told the field umps its not their fault based on their position to determine a "check swing" or not.

 

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Further, in the 2 ump system w/ a runner of first & the field ump stationed between 2nd & 3rd. It is almost impossible for the field ump to call a check swing strike based on his angle. It would have to be more than a 3/4 swing for him/her to see which in most cases the home plate ump sees anyways. We had a few of these this weekend at Laser's - I told the field umps its not their fault based on their position to determine a "check swing" or not.

Hmmm...with a runner on first base the umpire should be positioned between first and second.

Check swings can be harder to see from one spot of another, but it isn't impossible and the rules don't prohibit a plate umpire from asking based on the field umpire's position.

Here's the way a checked swing appeal is supposed to work...

IF the plate umpire is uncertain he saw a swing, he should call a ball. He should only call a swing if he is 100% certain he saw one.

IF the pitch is called a ball, then the defense may ask the plate umpire to check with his partner. The plate umpire is not required to honor this request. If he is 100% certain there was no swing, he may stick with the ball call.

IF the plate umpire chooses to check with his partner, he may do so, no matter what position the base umpire is on the field.

IF the base umpire is 100% sure he saw a swing, then he should signal the strike. If he is not, then he should not.

If the umpires use this protocol, it takes out much of the variable of where the base umpire was located on the field. If he did not get a good look at the checked swing because of his positioning, then he should NOT be overturning the ball call and signalling a strike!

 

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Agree!!! The umps this weekend at lasers always asked for help if we wanted an appeal on a check swing!! I just think it would be hard for an ump in the field between 2nd & 3rd to overturn a ball called given his position relative to the angle he has of the plate especially w/ a right handed batter. Easier in this position to overturn a ball called if a lefty was batting. Overall, I give the umps this weekend at Laser's a good grade & all were very professional & willing to listen to your opinion if you questioned a call.