rule question

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my dd had this scenerio posed to her by a coach. If team A is batting w/bases loaded and the batter has 2 balls, on the next pitch it is ball 3 and she runs 2 first as if it were ball 4 and all other runners advance, does only the batter go back and the other players have now "stole" or do all runners go back. Coach says only batter goes back, ball is live until back to pitcher on mound and if no one makes a play everyone is safe. What do you say???
 
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Ball is live, runners can advance at their own risk, but batter will be returned to finish her at bat.
 
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Sounds like her coach is right.

The ball is live and runners can advance with liability to be put out. The defense has the responsibility to know the count and not allow runners to advance at will.

You would hope that the umpire is announcing the ball/strike count like he's supposed to during the at-bat. That stems off a lot of confusion and prevents things like this from happening.

Sometimes, batters make a mistake and head to first on ball three- it happens. As the umpire, I will say, "That's only ball three", or something like that as she takes off. If she continues running and fails to get back in the batter's box when directed, the only recourse is to charge a penalty strike (no pitch need be thrown) for delaying the game.

This all assumes that the batter headed to first base on her own, because she had the count wrong.

To switch the scenario around a bit- if the umpire thought it was ball four, and sent the batter to first base by his mistake, then I would consider this a correctible error. The defense was disadvantaged by an umpire error and only then would you return all runners to their previous base.
 
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I saw this happen in Spano dome this winter. Bases loaded. Count was 2 & 2. Next pitch was called a ball. batter dropped bat & ran to 1st. All other runners advanced 1 base. Pitcher just held ball. Umpire said nothing at the time, expect " ball". After coaches & umpire discussed the situation, Ump made batter & runners return.
 
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I dont know , read rules 2-32-art1 says:Interference is an act (physical or verbal) by a member of the team at bat who illegally impedes, hinders or confuse an fielder:
or rule 3-6-art13 says: Unsporting acts shall not be committed including, but not limited to: b. use of profanity, intimidation and/or deceitful tactics, or baiting or taunting

I would argue that the batter, confused the fielders, used deceitful tactics and baited the fielders.
 
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Well, if you had an umpire that was familiar with this play, your argument wouldn't get you anywhere. :(

It is the responsibility of the defense to know the situation here and not allow themselves to be confused. You have an easy out- maybe a couple!- to be made and if the defense isn't paying attention, it's their own fault.
 
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I would have to say that the rules i just should you prove other wise. If the coach had rule book in hand then it would be up to you as the umpire to show the coach the rule that states the batter can run to first on ball 3 and all forced runners can advance as if it was a walk, and this play would not violate those rules I just should you. You as an umpire have to follow the rules, you can not make up your own rules. If its not in the rule book then its not a rule, if it is in the rule book then you must follow the rules.

You even said "This all assumes that the batter headed to first base on her own, because she had the count wrong." If it was a planned play then rules 2-32-1 and 3-6-13 would apply.

If it was a mistake by the batter, it would be obvious by some runners not running some standing there and so on. Making them at risk to be put out. But if everyone takes off at the same time that would show more of an intent to deceit, bait and confuse, thus rules 2-32-1 and 3-6-13 would apply.

Just like intentionally dropping infield fly. If you dont try to catch it, that is not intentionally dropping that is intentionally not catching, to drop it you must touch it or have in your possession.

What about throwing the bat, umps always call this one. If a batter is swinging the bat and doesnt hold on to it is that throwing the bat or just not holding on to the bat. The bat most of the time ends up by the dugout or in foul territory. I have never seen an ump call it when the girl gets mad because she hit a fly ball or struck out, gets mad and threw the bat towards her dugout. But Rule 7-4-14 states this: The batter throws her whole bat and interferes with a defensive player attempting a play.
So if the bat does not interfere with a defensive player attempting a play there is no throwing the bat and the batter is not out.
 
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I guess I have ethical concerns with this play as coach wants to do this intentionally. I know ball is live etc,and you would have to prove it was intentionally done. I just think it is unsportsmanlike to ask players to act this way. It is sneaky and I dont want my dd to have that thought process, cheat sort of to win {maybe} at all costs. Arent the coaches supposed to be an example to the team. Also he has a few other sneaky plays up his sleeve. Just dont know how i feel about this legal play or not
 
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What about it's sister play? First base is occupied with less than two outs. The batter strikes out with and takes off to first base in an attempt to draw a throw to first from the catcher, who caught the 3rd strike. With parents and teammates yelling RUN RUN RUN, young catchers get caught up in the moment and chuck it to first ignoring the lead runner. Is this shady, unsportsmanlike or cheating. Good umps call the batter out right away, BUT you get some umps who get caught up also.

FTR: I'm in the "defense/catcher must know what is going on" camp. I try to always remind my catcher that she needs not throw to first in this situation. HOWEVER, 10 & 12U catchers has alot going on in the game so mistakes will be made.
 
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There is a local team who at mainly the LL level and now moving into the ASA/NSA area that have turned distraction into an art form. Their man way of scoring is 1/4 steals, 1/2 ways, rundowns, delayed steals , outright steals, confusion, mass confusion, orchestrated confusion , parent-coach screaming, you name it , they have tryed it. It works in LL and maybe at 10u , but pretty much is silliness against the better 12u teams. MD
 
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The only place you will probably see this is in the very young age groups. I would agree with nohitter on the ethical standpoint. I think that the coach needs to step back and re-evaluate why he is coaching.
 
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Parma, you obviously disagree with how I would rule this. I can assure you the interpretation I offered is supported by the NFHS Case Book. The key to making this call (in high school rules) is determining the batter's intent.

(As a side note, under ASA rules the batter has done nothing illegal here. The ASA definition of interference says that the player's action must interfere with a defender "making a play". NFHS dropped the "making a play" requirement from their rule book a couple of years ago. In ASA, the batter running, when she is not allowed to, is not interference because the defense is simply not making a play, hence there is nothing to interfere with. This is one point, of many, where ASA rules and NFHS rules diverge.)

Here is the NFHS Case Book Play:

3.6.13 SITUATION B: With R1 on first, B2 receives ball three and begins
advancing to first base as if ball four had been called. R1 advances to second as
if B2 has received a walk. F2 quickly asks the umpire if the pitch was ball four, but
in the confusion R1 advances to second base safely. RULING: The defensive team
should always be alert to the count and attempt plays accordingly. If the umpire
believes the team at bat purposely had its batter run to first on ball three, the
umpire could eject the batter for exhibiting behavior not in the spirit of fair play.
Otherwise, the umpire may warn the coach of the team at bat and eject the next
player to exhibit behavior that is not in accordance with the spirit of fair play. R1's
advance to second is legal.


Note that the advance by the runner already on base is legal. Note that the ruling says the defensive team has the responsibility to know the count and the situation and to act accordingly. Those two premises are universal between all rule sets.

NFHS rules are unique in that they allow the umpire to make a judgment if this act was intentional or not. As a practical matter, an umpire must be 100% certain an act is intentional before ejecting a player. That means he gets to take into account all of the circumstances surrounding the play. Did the umpire give the correct count just prior to this happening? Did the offense do this not once, twice or multiple times? All of that can be considered when forming an opinion of intent.

Proving intent is difficult. Sometimes a player just makes a mistake and has the wrong count. Sometimes her actions might be willful. That is why the ruling allows a warning to be given before enforcing any penalty.

Preventive umpiring- always giving the correct count and stopping the batter if she starts to run when not allowed- will head off any confusion before it happens. If the umpire has any suspicion (which is not equal to 100% certainty), then issue the warning and deal with this accordingly the next time it happens. But to eject the first time it happens is probably going to be an over-reaction.

One more note: The Case Play ruling calls this (potentially) an unsportsmanlike act, not interference. Even if ruled intentional and the batter is ejected, any other runners that advanced are legal, any runs that scored count and the batter would simply be replaced by a substitute who would take her place at the plate to resume the at-bat with the same count. No outs are charged to the offense.

A final comment on your final comment: Yes, there are rules covering a thrown bat that does not interfere with a play. The rules are 3-6-3 and 3-6-16. Here again, high school rules are different from all the others. There is a distinction between a carelessly discarded bat and one intentionally thrown, as in anger. The penalties are different depending on which one it is. Neither results in an out against the batter, but can result in a team warning or ejection.
 
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TheRinger said:
What about it's sister play? First base is occupied with less than two outs. The batter strikes out with and takes off to first base in an attempt to draw a throw to first from the catcher, who caught the 3rd strike. With parents and teammates yelling RUN RUN RUN, young catchers get caught up in the moment and chuck it to first ignoring the lead runner. Is this shady, unsportsmanlike or cheating. Good umps call the batter out right away, BUT you get some umps who get caught up also.

FTR: I'm in the "defense/catcher must know what is going on" camp. I try to always remind my catcher that she needs not throw to first in this situation. HOWEVER, 10 & 12U catchers has alot going on in the game so mistakes will be made.

Ringer, you are in a good camp!

This one is fully covered and supported by rule. While a retired runner may be called out for interference if she continues to run and subsequently interferes with a play or a fielder, the rules specifically exempt a batter from interference for running on an uncaught third strike play.

(NFHS rule 8-6-18; ASA rule 8-7-P)
 
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Preventative officiating goes a long way in both the situations presented. The old school of thought was give the count only when asked and only to the batter and catcher. Not anymore. I instruct my association to give it as much as possible. Esp. after foul balls, steals, wild pitches and when the next pitch might be the last in the at bat, 3 balls or 2 strikes. Also, say Ball 4! This way there is no doubt. Another personal mechanic I do, before each team takes their first turn on defense, I tell both catchers, "On a 3rd strike I say Batter's Out, if you don't hear Batter's Out, do what you what you feel is necessary to get the out. If I say it and the batter runs, she's on her own and you do what you have to do."
 
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Absolutley brilliant! cheesy but brilliant!

I give him credit, many HS coaches struggle with teaching the basics of fastpitch, installing a run scoring tactic like this in HS is brilliant. If someone pulled this on me, I would consider myself as unprepared, blame myself and not cry underhanded, if prepared, you get the out and an umpire ruling doesn't become a factor.

Hitting batters due to runners giving away pitches is acceptable by upper level coaches on this forum so I say winning a game by rule manipulation with no one getting hurt is brilliant.
 
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Bretman-

Obviously we can play the "what if" game all day and drag this post out too long but there is a "what if" I'm curious about related to the original post. What if the batter starts towards first base as if she received ball four and the runners begin to advance. What if my catcher fires the ball toward first and strikes the batter/runner with the ball and she is not in the running lane? I will argue that my catcher was trying to throw behind the runner at first to pick her off and we have interference on the batter. Would I have a chance to win this discussion?
 
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Bret that is what I was saying, dont just assume one thing it is always about intent. Which is with out a doubt up to the umpire. But as the umpire dont assume its a mistake. I have seen many coaches pull bull crap like this with all the intent possible.
 
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Bucketjockey,

That is a good question! This one gets a little trickier and several different rules come into play.

I would have to say that your argument would not be valid in the case of the batter advancing on ball three. But if she was advancing on ball four, and it was a high school game, not only would your argument have a chance, it would be the correct call!

Here is why I would not rule a three-foot running violation if the batter was advancing on ball three.

The rules state that the three-foot running lane applies ONLY to a batter-runner- that is, a batter who is legally advancing to first base by virtue of a batted ball, walk, base award or uncaught third strike. If it was only ball three, the batter has not become a batter-runner and thus the running lane rule does not apply.

If it was ball four, then the batter has legally become a batter-runner and the three-foot running lane rules do apply. And that is is another case of the NFHS/high school rule interpretation being different than the ASA interpretation.

ASA has ruled that when a batter-runner is advancing to first on an awarded base, there is no play to be made on her (ie: no opportunity to make an out). Thus, there can be no interference if she is out of the running lane on a walk.

NFHS has issued an opposite ruling, since their definition of interference is a little bit different than ASA. They consider a throw to stop the batter-runner from rounding first as "a play" by the catcher. Their Case Book specifically says this can be interference. Here is their Case Play:

8.2.5 SITUATION B: R1 is on third, and the batter receives a base on balls. The
batter-runner runs to first completely in fair territory (outside of the three-foot
running lane) the last half distance to first. The catcher throws the ball to first and
the throw strikes the batter-runner. RULING: If the umpire judges that the batter-runner
interfered with a legitimate play by the catcher, she should be called out.
COMMENT: All bases must be run legally, even awarded bases.


So, if it was ball four, and if the batter-runner is out of the running lane, and if it is a high school game you would have interference.

What about if it was only ball three? We have already established that the running lane rule does not apply under either rule set. Now we're back to the topic that started this thread- a batter advancing when she is not entitled to.

For a high school game, you could apply the warning/interference for drawing a throw rules posted above. The umpire has the discretion to issue a warning or call interference.

For ASA, the batter could only be called out if she contacted the throw AND there was a play/out opportunity interfered with, like a runner already on first base who could be picked off. You would treat this the same as batter interference when the catcher is attempting to pick off a runner. Otherwise, the ball would remain live and in play. ?
 
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Parma,

As noted, in an ASA game "intent" is irrelevent. If there is no play/out opportunity interfered with, there is no penalty.

If it's a high school game, the umpire may warn or eject at his discretion.

It's also important to note that "deceit" is not, in and of itself, illegal. There is all kinds of "deceit" that is legal under the rules. Batters square to bunt, then swing away, cut-off players act as if they are receiving throws, the hidden ball trick is legal, runners fake steals, pitchers change speeds and deliveries.

Just be cause something is deceitful, it isn't necessarily illegal unless there is a specific rule that addresses it.
 
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