Pitching and Pitchers Discussion The secret to a rise ball

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And I thought I was the only one that has that problem. At times I can hit the prettiest Line-drives you ever saw, except they're about 4"-6" off the ground.;&


FASTPITCH! Anything else, And you're playing to SLOW!

In your golf stance... move the ball slightly forward and it will RISE. Sounds like to me, you are hitting the ball too far off your back foot if you are hitting low line drives.

Sorry about the hijack - now back to the show.

 

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I agree with Cincy Storm on all his observations--especially men's fastpitch. I only played one year of high level men's fastpitch in 1969 but I guarantee I was struck out, swinging and non-swinging, more by the rise ball than any other pitch. And, I struck out so much, I gave fastpitch up. The rise is very effective when it comes in looking low and then jumps up into the strike zone and also when it looks like you have one belt-high and just as you start your swing, it ends up 2 to 4 inches above your bat.

 

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I wish I would have known this when batting against Peter Meredith and Mike White.

And I swear Harvey Sterkel must have been a magician.

Also, I wonder if all the Triple A Baseball and hotshot College Baseball players knew that a riseball was physically impossible as they were walking away from the plate cursing?

The key is upper body strength and driving the back knee down, but the defienitive answer is YES there is a riseball and I would invite anyone who hasn't heard the seams on a 12" softball screaming to contact ANY of the pitchers invited to the American Mens team tryouts and pay them to come out and demonstrate it for you.

I realize we are talking about men, but I will reference Amanda Scott and Lori Harrigan as being women who threw a Rise that hopped.

That being offered most all the pitchers in Ohio and for that matter in JO ball that claim they have a Rise have an "upshoot" and yes it is an incline pitch, but for those of you that have never seen or heard a real riseball, you are at a severe disadvantage in this discussion.

And for the maven of physics, please factor in velocity and mass when you do your calculations.

Like the riseball I know that many of the laws of physics defy such a thing as a "heavy ball" but I would ask any of the dads and coaches here that have caught a pitcher that threw a "heavy ball" to testify as to the effect it has upon the catchers hand and thumb!!LOL!!

It's funny that you mention this. Several years ago the show "Mythbusters" did a show on whether or not a baseball pitcher could throw a ball that would rise. As everyone knows the natural spin for a baseball fastball is backwards, same as the softball rise ball. They used Roger Clemens, who has about as much movement on a pitch as any pitcher could. They showed his pitch in real time, which it appeared that the pitch was rising. Then they showed the same pitch in slow motion you could see that the pitch actually dropped. And again like I stated in my previous post that those who say that a pitch can rise will offer no proof other than "I've seen it happen". Lol:lmao: And also as I stated before gravity is a constant and objects of equal mass react the same. You could drop a 200 lb cannon ball placed 3' off of the ground right behind a cannon that was 3' off of the ground, and shoot a 200 lb cannon ball out of it perfectly parallel to the ground and they would both it the ground at the same time. You could shoot the cannon ball at a 45 degree angle and when the cannon ball that you dropped from 3' hit the ground the cannon ball that you shot would have dropped in elevation 3'. Tourn Director did you ever see the movie "Yes Man"? You're reason for supporting someones post is because you couldn't hit it, yet you were so in tune with the pitch, that you discribe what it did to make you miss........LMAO now thats funny! I thought that being in tune with what a pitch did made a hitter ahhhhhhhh........lets say hit:lmao: For those of you that have nicknamed the "rise ball" the incline pitch, kudos to you because thats all it is. Right pitch, right time, just like throwing a high hard inside fastball in baseball when your 0-2. Lets take a look at Lori Harrigan's rise ball in slow motion. Her vid is 9 down from the top all the way to the right. It's an awesome rise ball shown in slow motion from behind right at the end of the vid http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.acessoftball.com/videos/Pitching/Lorrie%2520Harrigan/Lori%2520Harrigan%2520-%2520Rise%2520Ball.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.acessoftball.com/Tips/Pitching/pitching.htm&usg=__tvmggXMG04C3Y2KyOs8-Y6fbpRQ=&h=240&w=352&sz=33&hl=en&start=12&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=u6mtwpSNYfriHM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drise%2Bball%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4DKUS_enUS271US274%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1, and you can see it still drops.

BTW did anyone happen to look at Sammy's diagram.....thanks Sammy

 

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I have always called it "The ball that does'nt drop as much". I guess incline ball will work, and its much easier to say! Myth busters did a segment with Roger Clemens on this topic. A baseball player should be able to get much more spin for this pitch. He showed it could'nt be done. They tried to do it with machines that could produce more spin than the "Rocket". Their conclusion: can't be done! If you want a rise ball throw a beach ball!

 

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BUCKNCM: glad to see I'm not the only one to see that episode of Mythbusters!

 

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A while back I posted a challenge for ANYONE to post video of a rise ball ACTUALLY rising. In the meantime, there have been several videos showing what the pitch actually does. As of yet though, NONE of the men's 90+ mph smoke throwers have come forward - using various excuses. C'mon guys!! If these weakling women can't do it, maybe YOU can!! Show me th' money!! All you have to do is put a lot of spin on the ball, and throw it hard!

I KNOW it was a rise ball, 'cause I SEEN it! lol! :lmao:

 

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I don't know and I don't really care whether a rise ball truly rises (though I do know I tried to catch Hillhouse throwing one once and all 3 balls went up over my right shoulder!). The important thing is that it has a different look than your other pitches and that you can either throw it for a strike and/or get batters to go fishing for it out of the zone.

 

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Someone brought golf into this, so I will bring it up on my argument as to the whole rise ball thing??? Ok I will grant you that we live on earth and there is inherent gravity. (We can all agree on that) So no matter what you do, gravity will have an effect on the ball... it will fall. It seems you argue the point as if we believe that if the catcher were not there the ball would just continue to go up, up and away!! "and you can see it still drops." -buckncm

(But I disagree that by spinning the ball ( even if it is not enough to overcome gravity and actually, "Rise" ) that it does not have an effect on the ball. That has been proven.. It is evident in almost any sport related to speed.. Aerodynamics effect trajectory(sp) Spin and seems are part of aerodynnamics of the ball and they will effect the distance a ball falls even though gravity is constant.. That is FACT!!

Another point to make about the rise ball before I go.. The ball is effected by spin as it travels through the air and thrown at the "inclined" angle. It appears to " rise on the batter and in fact given right conditions, may, " jump"( like a knuckle ball) Well perception is reality to the batter making it a good name" rise ball " for the pitch!!

Also, why is the curve then left alone in all this discussion??? Is it not really a drop curve based on all the physical evidence given!!!!!!

 

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The real, true secret to a rise ball is getting the other team to believe that your pitcher has this pitch and that she can throw it effectively, especially with 2 strikes on a batter.

Gotta love head games.

 

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buckn,

Whether it "rose" ---everyone who has played men's high level has had the perception that the "rise" exists --it could have been an "incline" that hopped but to my eye and all the other players and umpires it looked like it rose--I couldn't hit the thing because of the movement, evidently; it wasn't the only pitch that gave me trouble. It has been an effective pitch for years and that is what matters to the pitchers. To me, it will always be a "rise" ball whether it rose/inclined or not is irrelevant to me.

bob

 

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Are changeups really slower then fastballs?......really?

 

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To me, the moon will always be made of cheese - I don't care what those astronauts found! It still LOOKS like cheese to me!

I must agree that even though science and video has shown what actually happens, it really comes down to the batter's perception. The batter still has to hit the ball regardless of what it does. If a team is fortunate enough to get a "David Copperfield" pitcher who can give the illusion of a rise, that's good enough. If a batter "believes it's rising" or "jumping", it probably is from their perspective.

 

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It seems you argue the point as if we believe that if the catcher were not there the ball would just continue to go up, up and away!! "and you can see it still drops." -buckncm

You obviously didn't understand my post if that's what you got out of it.

 

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Whether a ball hops or not will always be up for debate. The fact remains it can still be going up as it gets to the plate, and is most effective if released low. The eye and the mind have , in some cases, less than .40 of a second to decide if it is just a fast ball or not. If I can throw a ball underhand over the backstop, it was still going up as it crossed the plate. Pitchers can ,at least, throw a "slant" ball the does the same. I think the backwards spin may help the ball not drop as much. It may be an optical illusion, but Smith, Hillhouse and Marstellers ball all seem to hop. All three insist they do. I have caught Marsteller and it sure seems to hop. Whether it actually does or not, I don`t know. By the way, a baseball has a totally different size, weight, and stitch size as a softball has. Not a great comparison by mythbusters. Not saying it hops, just saying when thrown properly, it sure looks as if it does.

 

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TD and punchout,

Since we seem to agree I will point out that the negative argument that there is no such thing as a riseball does not in any way deal with the hop, apparently if the ball doesn't continue to rise into the sky it cannot be a riseball, unfortunately we would probably all agree that at some point inthe 43' the ball travels, 46' for men the ball hops and goes up, whether it goes down after that is a point that is immaterial very seldom have I seen what happens AFTER the ball goes past the batter affect a game, other than an occasional pitch that gets away.

I could really care less what the doubters say or trot out as proof, the fact is that rotation and speed does affect the flight of a ball, or is the curveball another of your optical illusions, if so there are literally thousands of us out there that were driven out of baseball by an illusion.

As for any of these men taking time out of their schedules, they will ask a few questions hear your answers as they have been presented and conclude that it would be a waste of their time due to the lack of experience and knowledge regarding the game they love so much.

 

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As a bucket dad with a DD who is learning the riseball, I can tell you that there is a difference between a ball thrown high and a riseball with the proper spin on it. It gets to a certain point in the trajectory where you would expect it to start to drop, but it doesn't. It flattens out or "appears" to move up. It also looks differently than a high fastball at the 50% mark; they look more like a strike coming in. At the last instance, say about 5 feet from the plate, they "move".

The movement, as I said, is more of a flattening out. When you have caught (or hit) thousands of times you get used to the natural drop of a fastball, drop ball, or changeup. You can predict where the ball is going to go. The riseball "finishes" higher than these. The good ones move. The bad ones look like a pitch out of the zone.

Yes, I know that they drop some. The physical universe we live in doesn't change when you step onto a ballfield. The eyes, however, do lie when it comes to this pitch.

 

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When catching for my DD and she throws the rise her spin actually has a 7 to 1 oclock spin to almost 8 to 2 oclock spin. She has been taught this spin rotation is better since the ball breaks in the direction of the spin. Buckncm if your willing sometime you can catch her using a lefty mitt, holding your mitt out front and a bit lower of your face. She will aim to the mit and with out moving the mit to the direction it will end up (your face) that may make you a believer that the rise can have some type of break to it. I can almost bet half the time it will hit your face. Now it is only going to be a 3 inch break so you can position where you want it to hit. lmao

 

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I asked my DD what the Secret to a Rise ball is......she laughed at me and said, as a hitter, lay off of it, as a pitcher, strike 3, your out......guess she told me....lol

 

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It's an awesome rise ball shown in slow motion from behind right at the end of the vid http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a=X&um=1, and you can see it still drops.

You obviously didn't understand my post if that's what you got out of it.

In reading your posts, I got out of it that fact that you say a rise ball drops!!! ie reason behind the facto... IT is not a rise ball!! Also the physics to counter gravity on the ball is impossible from a pitching stand point.. Let me know if I missed anything..

I will also say this, even if a ball is thrown in a straight line ( with gravity making it drop a little) from just below the knee of pitcher to just above shoulder of batter, "incline" Technically, that ball did rise from it's original position!!! I would like to hear an argument on how that is not true.?????

Which brings me back to my statement, -It seems you argue the point as if we believe that if the catcher were not there the ball would just continue to go up, up and away!! the only fact based argument you can make that a rise ball does not rise, is the fact that yes, gravity makes it fall. "and you can see it still drops." - buckncm

**** disclaimer***Hey I would also like to throw out here that in arguing my pionts, I do not wish to offend anyone an there is no malice intended by using someone's quotes.. I enjoy debating sometimes on here and making my points... I also may occassionally throw in some sarcasm but I have no annimosity towards anyone when I debate a topic...