Bretman....

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Bases loaded..1 out...linedrive back to pitcher...she catches and turns and throws to third to double up runner..ball sails over 3rd bases head out of play...ump awards all runners 2nd bases..correct call?

 

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I'm not bretman, but, yep, that's a correct call.

 

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All the girls were off the bases at the time of the catch and the throw. They did not tag up yet. The question I had for the umpire was they are awarded two bases from the release. Since they had to tag up in order to advance does that not count as 1 base and therefore the 2nd base would be the next base? Girl on 3rd gets home, 2nd to 3rd, 1st to 2nd? Umpire in my opinion awarded them 3 bases since they did not tag up before she released the ball? He awarded 2 runs scored and the runner on 1st to 3rd. Need your help Betman. Thanks!

 

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2 base award

 

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I looked at the rule book on this and while on Sat I thought the umpire wrong, I now think he is right. When the ball left the pitchers hand all the runners were in between bases - they are considered 'left early' basically as the ball was caught. It is not an 'out' until the play is over and the ball dead - that may be with the ball getting to a base before they return to 'tag' - as the pitcher intended by throwing to third to 'complete a double play' - but as the ball sailed out of play - they are still live base runners attempting to get to the 'next' base and therefore should get 2 - runner on third and second scoring. There is no out on leaving early until the play is over and the defense appeals the runner or the ball immediately goes to the base to pick-off the runner. It is no different than a girl going back to tag up then leaving early and the ball going home, etc.. it requires an appeal to get the out. The base they left is technically theirs as they started there ... going back to tag has nothing to do with it.. they still get 2 bases ahead of the 'last' base they occupied...

We will see... so far 2 votes for 2 bases, come on Bretman .. what's the ruling? I am amazed I have not seen this happen before...

 

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In NSA, the awarded bases are based on the position of the runners at the time of the pitch which makes it a moot point. NSA Rule 8, Sec 5 E 2

For HS and I believe ASA, it is based on the position at the time of the throw, however retouching a base left too soon does not count as one of the awarded bases. Here is the quoted penalty from NFHS for an out of play overthrow. 8-4-3F "All runners will be awarded 2 bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon."

The runners must retouch any base left too soon before advancing the awarded bases in HS, NSA, and ASA. If not, they should be declared out on appeal.

 

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This is somewhat adressed in the 2011 NFHS case book regarding awarded bases must be touched legally. In this example, the award is correctly stated as 2 bases not including the return.

"8.3.11 R1 is on first when B2 hits a fly ball to F9 who overthrows first in an attempt to double off R1. The throw goes into the dugout. R1 fails to (a) retouch first, or (b) touch second on the way to third. RULING In both (a) and (b) the umpire must wait foir the defensive team to make a dead ball appeal on R1. "

 

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That is what I read in the ASA rule book, ball sails out of play, runner does have to return, touch the base, then gets her 2 bases... in this case 2 score, runner on 1st goes to third.

 

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I know you are waiting for Bret's answer but....

In ASA, they would get two bases from where they were at the time of the pitch. That is not exactly how the rule reads, but that is the net effect on this play. The umpires were right if they scored the runners from 2nd and 3rd, and moved the girl on 1st to 3rd.

 

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"All runners will be awarded 2 bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon." where the runners are at time of the pitch has nothing to do with it....UNLESS it was the pitched ball (wild pitch) that went out of play

This is the rule, the biggest myth is the old saying "the base she is going to plus one" which has never been a rule, EVER..

Dont feel to bad i had an umpire award my batter 2 bases on an over throw, giving her second base, and he awarded the runners only one base
, which were on second base and third base and gave them Home and third... After some discussion I ended up yelling to him to pickup a rule book and read it once in awhile, AND SAID IT WAS A GOOD THING NO ONE WAS ON FIRST, HE SAID WHY, I SAID BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE 2 GIRLS THAT WERE AWARDED SECOND BASE.

 

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Yes, the award is two bases "forward", based on the runner's position at the time of the throw (when the ball left the fielder's hand).

If the runners were off base when the ball was caught, they are still required to go back and tag up before completing their base awards. If they do not, then each runner who was off base may be called out on an appeal by the defense.

 

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Yes, the award is two bases "forward", based on the runner's position at the time of the throw (when the ball left the fielder's hand).

If the runners were off base when the ball was caught, they are still required to go back and tag up before completing their base awards. If they do not, then each runner who was off base may be called out on an appeal by the defense.

Now that is slick.

So they still have to tag. I can bet you that this rule could come in handy.

 

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"All runners will be awarded 2 bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon." where the runners are at time of the pitch has nothing to do with it....UNLESS it was the pitched ball (wild pitch) that went out of play

This is the rule, the biggest myth is the old saying "the base she is going to plus one" which has never been a rule, EVER..

Dont feel to bad i had an umpire award my batter 2 bases on an over throw, giving her second base, and he awarded the runners only one base
, which were on second base and third base and gave them Home and third... After some discussion I ended up yelling to him to pickup a rule book and read it once in awhile, AND SAID IT WAS A GOOD THING NO ONE WAS ON FIRST, HE SAID WHY, I SAID BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE 2 GIRLS THAT WERE AWARDED SECOND BASE.

Hopefully this is the moment the umpire realized he was WRONG!

I am going to have to remember that line.

 

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Yes, the award is two bases "forward", based on the runner's position at the time of the throw (when the ball left the fielder's hand).

If the runners were off base when the ball was caught, they are still required to go back and tag up before completing their base awards. If they do not, then each runner who was off base may be called out on an appeal by the defense.

Good to know for future reference. Thank you. I did ask the umpire if they needed to tag up because she caught the ball and they were returning to tag as she threw it out of play and he said no "they don't have to tag because it's a dead ball and runners advance two bases". I said "what about the tag? does that count as one of the bases?" "No they don't have to tag on a dead ball". Honestly she fired the ball so quickly out of play I don't know if they made it back to tag. They probably did.

Thanks Doug, Bretman, and all who commented.

 

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They all had plenty of time to return to their base and were standing on them as he made the call to advance them.

 

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They all had plenty of time to return to their base and were standing on them as he made the call to advance them.

Ok. Like I said they probably did. Good luck next week. I hope we get the chance to cheer each other on.