Illegal pitch time, bretman?

[softballu1964]

I was told by ump that time (10 seconds) starts as soon as hands come together, no matter if batter is in box or not. I said that I disagreed, ump said that's the rule..
I then asked if a pitchers hands come together on mound, batter is taking sign/s not in batters box and you start the count 1-10 seconds can there be an illegal pitch called if you get to 10 and batter has not entered batters box? He said yes. I disagreed..
Bretman- is it possible to call an illegal pitch before batter enters box?
Also what is rule when you start the timed count 1-10, can it be before batter enters box?

 

[softballu1964]

Sorry Brentman...fat fingers

 

[MadT]

That's true, when The pitchers hands come together is when time starts.

 

[MadT]

The ball, after the signal is taken, must be taken in both hands and may not be held
for longer than ten seconds.

 

[BretMan2]

My first question would be that if the pitcher is standing there that long with her hands together, was she first taking her signal with her hands separated? If she wasn't, then that in itself would be an illegal pitch, before the ten seconds ever came into play. I'm just having a hard time picturing how she's meeting the requirement of first having the hands separated if she's standing there with them together that long.

That aside, by the strictest reading of the rule, yes, the ten-second count begins as soon as the pitcher's hands are joined. I've never seen this be a problem in a game. If the batter isn't even in the box yet, I'd tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher. But as her coach, if the umpire was being strict about this I'd tell my pitcher to keep her hands apart until the batter gets in there.

Could you hit the ten-second count before the batter even gets in the box? You shouldn't, because if the batter is taking longer than ten seconds to get in the box she is committing a rule violation right there! I'm probably calling time and instructing the batter to get set if she's taking that long.

 

[bucketdad61]

This doesn't make sense. A pitcher stands on the pitching rubber with her hands apart. The Umpire grants time out until the batter is in the box and set. Once the umpire grants play, the pitcher has 10 seconds to start the wind up. The wind up consists of putting the hands together first but why would a pitcher pause that long once in motion? Pitchers typically get off balance doing this. Some pitchers think they are messing with the batters when they take a while but all they are doing is giving the batter an opportunity to call time out. Once a batter calls time out, the batter is taking control. Pitchers should never give batters control, ever.

 

[FastBat]

I was told by ump that time (10 seconds) starts as soon as hands come together, no matter if batter is in box or not. I said that I disagreed, ump said that's the rule..
I then asked if a pitchers hands come together on mound, batter is taking sign/s not in batters box and you start the count 1-10 seconds can there be an illegal pitch called if you get to 10 and batter has not entered batters box? He said yes. I disagreed..
Bretman- is it possible to call an illegal pitch before batter enters box?
Also what is rule when you start the timed count 1-10, can it be before batter enters box?

Perhaps, the ump was trying to suggest to the pitcher, to take her time and slow down. Also, to not put her hands together until the batter was ready. Usually when an ump is talking rules like that, especially at younger ages, they are trying to help the coaches/players understand the rules better.

My dd is a pitcher and she works very fast, too fast. I swear sometimes she will get an ump that will clean the plate to slow her down and let her catch her breath!

 

[SoCal_Dad]

This doesn't make sense. A pitcher stands on the pitching rubber with her hands apart. The Umpire grants time out until the batter is in the box and set. Once the umpire grants play, the pitcher has 10 seconds to start the wind up. The wind up consists of putting the hands together first but why would a pitcher pause that long once in motion? Pitchers typically get off balance doing this. Some pitchers think they are messing with the batters when they take a while but all they are doing is giving the batter an opportunity to call time out. Once a batter calls time out, the batter is taking control. Pitchers should never give batters control, ever.

Pitchers normally keep their hands apart until they have actually received the sign, however they can put them together before that as long as they paused after stepping onto their plate. Putting them together early is problematic though when they're not able to separate them within 10 seconds.

Which rule set are you referencing with the requirement to start the windup within 10 seconds? NCAA is similar to that, but most (e.g. ASA, NFHS) say 20 seconds to release pitch after getting ball or umpire indicates "play ball."

Players don't call time out - they request it and it's up to the umpire to grant it.

 

[Comp]

The pitcher has 20 seconds after receiving the ball to deliver the pitch, but, if they immediately step onto the pitching plate, take the signal and bring the hands together that 20 seconds is now out the window. Once the hands are together they only have 10 seconds to separate them and start the pitch.

But, as Bretman has said there is no way the pitcher can deliver the ball with no batter in the box. Benefit of the doubt is going to go to the pitcher. Certainly sounds like the pitcher in the discussion needs to slow down and wait for the batter to enter the batters box before bringing the hands together.

 

[daboss]

SoCal_Dad is getting real close to answering the question asked as I read it. I believe we have some confusion on this topic. Hopefully Bretman can shed more light after my post.

There are a couple or more of rules being tested here. The first is the rule pertaining to the batter. The batter is required to get her signal and assume her position in the batter's box prior to the umpire awarding the "play ball" signal and command. That's when the pitcher can bring her hands together and starts the 10-second count. A pitcher cannot assume her position on the pitching plate and bring her hands together just because she has the ball. She has to wait till the umpire puts the game back into play. NOW, once she recieves the order or signal from the umpire, she CAN bring her hands together, separate, then complete her pitch regardless of the batter's stance. The umpire will then award either a strike or ball on the pitch thrown.

The other rule that needs explanation deals with the time limit on the batter. Many sanctions say 20 seconds but there is some confusion on when this count should start. First of all, the batter requests time out. The umpire awards it if he feels it needed. Time out to the batter is not normally awarded once the pitcher's hands come together unless there is a situation of safety involved such as an errant ball on the field. Once the pitcher brings her hands together, that engages play. The batter can ask for time but normally it is never awarded. If she backs out of the box and the pitcher completes her pitch for a strike, the strike call will be awarded. Yes, pitchers have been known to hold their pose with both hands with the ball together for an entire 10 count. It can be annoying to a batter. Still, it is a part of the game. I teach my hitters to assume a position in the box and remain relaxed with hands loose until the pitcher separates her hands. That's the sign she's going to deliver a pitch.

Last, the rule about the pitcher and the time she has to throw the next pitch. Most sanctions say the pitcher has 20 seconds from the time she possesses the ball in the pitcher's circle till she is required to throw her next pitch. This is true. She can have that time within the circle to safely compose herself, wipe off the ball, fix her hair, pick her nose, (although still required to wipe her hands off before gripping the ball), before taking her stance on the pitching plate. Her stance on the plate indicates to the umpires she is ready. She then pauses to take or simulate taking a sign. her next move would be to bring her hands with the ball together but only if the umpire has indicated that the game is now in play. She can request time and if granted step back, but normally not awarded once her hands come together. Once they come together she needs to complete her pitch

 

[Comp]

The first is the rule pertaining to the batter. The batter is required to get her signal and assume her position in the batter's box prior to the umpire awarding the "play ball" signal and command. That's when the pitcher can bring her hands together and starts the 10-second count. A pitcher cannot assume her position on the pitching plate and bring her hands together just because she has the ball.

Unless time has been called, the ball is always live in softball. There is no requirement for the batter to be in position prior to the pitcher engaging the pitching plate or bringing the hands together. The umpire also does not give a play ball signal to the pitcher each and every time the batter enters the batters box.

The other rule that needs explanation deals with the time limit on the batter. Many sanctions say 20 seconds but there is some confusion on when this count should start.

The batter has 10 seconds to assume their position in the batters box after the pitcher receives the ball in every rule set I am aware of.

She can have that time within the circle to safely compose herself, wipe off the ball, fix her hair, pick her nose, (although still required to wipe her hands off before gripping the ball), before taking her stance on the pitching plate. Her stance on the plate indicates to the umpires she is ready. She then pauses to take or simulate taking a sign. her next move would be to bring her hands with the ball together but only if the umpire has indicated that the game is now in play. She can request time and step back, but CANNOT do so once her hands come together. Once they come together she needs to complete her pitch

Again, the umpire does not indicate or put the ball back into play on each and every pitch. The ball is live unless time has been called and both the batter and pitcher should play accordingly. The batter has 10 seconds to enter the box and the pitcher has 20 to deliver the pitch. As for wiping the hand, the rule book actually only states the hand needs to be wiped if the pitcher goes to their mouth, but, yes if the pitcher picks her nose she would need to wipe her hand. Touching her hair, face, arm, picking up dirt, rosin bag etc she does not need to wipe her hand (except college). And yes, the pitcher can legally step back off the pitching plate after she had brought her hands together. It is after she has separated them she cannot disengage.

 

[daboss]

My first question would be that if the pitcher is standing there that long with her hands together, was she first taking her signal with her hands separated? If she wasn't, then that in itself would be an illegal pitch, before the ten seconds ever came into play. I'm just having a hard time picturing how she's meeting the requirement of first having the hands separated if she's standing there with them together that long.

That aside, by the strictest reading of the rule, yes, the ten-second count begins as soon as the pitcher's hands are joined. I've never seen this be a problem in a game. If the batter isn't even in the box yet, I'd tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher. But as her coach, if the umpire was being strict about this I'd tell my pitcher to keep her hands apart until the batter gets in there.

Could you hit the ten-second count before the batter even gets in the box? You shouldn't, because if the batter is taking longer than ten seconds to get in the box she is committing a rule violation right there! I'm probably calling time and instructing the batter to get set if she's taking that long.

I was wrong about the time limit to the batter in my original post as indicated by comp following my original response. I'm sure 10 seconds for the batter is probably correct now. Remember, I grew old with the rules changing in this game and that's partly why I accept corrections from others if I am unsure. I quit coaching teams years ago to focus on pitching lessons and I admit to being out of touch with some changes.

I am confused about the time out thing. I was corrected by comp that there was no required time out granted by the umpire between pitches. While I agree the ball is live unless a time out is granted, isn't this the same thing if an umpire allows the batter her 10 seconds to take her position in the box between pitches? Bretman points out he would go as far as to call time and instruct the batter to get established in the box before allowing the pitch to be delivered. I have seen umpires declare "no pitch" if a pitcher delivers the pitch before the ump or the batter appear ready. Normally the pitcher is instructed to wait till the umpire indicates "play ball." To me, this is a time out. If this is not, what do you call it?

Don't get me wrong here. I want the game to move forward smoothly. I am not a fan of the cat and mouse games between pitchers and hitters although the occasional pause with the hands together can be entertaining. I don't instruct pitchers to do such things. However, I DO instruct pitchers to be respectful of the umpires and not throw their pitch unless the ump has indicated they are ready to resume play. My pitchers are insstructed to observe and deliver the pitch to the target regardless of the position of the batter once she gets her signal and the umpire is ready. If a batter has ignored the 10 second rule and failed to take her position in the box, My interpretation of the rules are the umpire should allow my pitcher to begin and complete her pitch without interruption. The batter gets the result of the pitch.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[jt7663]

Had a pitcher that we faced never had hands together they were to her side the entire time prior to delivering pitch. Illegal pitch Correct???

 

[Louuuuu]

Correct.

(I'm assuming it was a younger pitcher - who never changes her grip, and just flings it every time?)

 

[Comp]

If the pitcher never brings the hands together, yes it is an illegal pitch.

If the batter is not in the batters box the umpire should not allow the pitch to be delivered. It is a quick pitch if the pitcher delivers the ball before the batter is ready. A quick pitch is just a now pitch situation and is not an illegal pitch. If the batter is taking too long to get set in the box or not listening to the umpire a penalty strike will usually cure the problem.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Had a pitcher that we faced never had hands together they were to her side the entire time prior to delivering pitch. Illegal pitch Correct???

The stated minimum time of bringing the hands together for 1 second has been reinterpreted to only require the hands come together. This can be satisfied at any point from standing on their plate to during the windup/delivery.

 

[FastBat]

Had a pitcher that we faced never had hands together they were to her side the entire time prior to delivering pitch. Illegal pitch Correct???

So, if her hands were never together, where was the ball? If it was in her glove, how would she have gotten the ball into her throwing hand? It must have only ever been in her throwing hand the entire time??? How did she grip the ball? How did she drive off the mound? Most of the time the pitcher is driving off the mound with hands together, it's an easy way to drive the entire body forward.

This is why I just have my dd hold the ball in her glove hand, then she has to bring her hands together, once in a while a less experienced coach that will say something. But, it surprises me that she did this the entire game and never got called on it...I have never seen something like this.

 

[BretMan2]

But, it surprises me that she did this the entire game and never got called on it...I have never seen something like this.

An inexperienced pitcher might do this.

An inexperienced coach might never bring it up.

An inexperienced umpire might not realize it's illegal.

 

[FastBat]

An inexperienced pitcher might do this.

An inexperienced coach might never bring it up.

An inexperienced umpire might not realize it's illegal.

And you are probably right, anything is possible, lol! It just doesn't seem like that step could be missed...

 

[wow]

The pitcher has 20 seconds after receiving the ball to deliver the pitch, but, if they immediately step onto the pitching plate, take the signal and bring the hands together that 20 seconds is now out the window. Once the hands are together they only have 10 seconds to separate them and start the pitch.

But, as Bretman has said there is no way the pitcher can deliver the ball with no batter in the box. Benefit of the doubt is going to go to the pitcher. Certainly sounds like the pitcher in the discussion needs to slow down and wait for the batter to enter the batters box before bringing the hands together.

Great points here which I think are critical to the thread. 1st the 20 seconds. From the time the ball is received to the time the kid steps on the mound is all indicative of a batter in the batters box. Too many kids, at the younger ages rush to t he mound. Everyone agrees you cant pitch to no one, unless the batter refuses to step in. So the sequence of events should be something like this. Pitcher receives ball, 20 seconds starts. From off the mound but in the circle the pitcher waits for the batter to get in the box, then the pitcher steps on the mound takes the sign, hands come together, and the 10 seconds begins. The pitch then occurs.

The younger age pitchers like to get in a very quick pitching style, which leads to these out of order events, which leads to illegal pitches. Rarely do you see illegal pitches at the older ages. They are methodical, cold, and calculating in the circle. Its almost like watching poetry in motion.