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Wow , You really should read and reread your first two sentences over and over. That is EXACTLY what I said 2 months ago...yet you and all the other dimwits disagreed with me.
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Take it easy, Username. Some people don't read every post on OFC. (Heck, some people don't even bother reading an entire thread before commenting!)
And, if it weren't for dimwits disagreeing, every thread would contain only the original post...
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And, if it weren't for dimwits disagreeing, every thread would contain only the original post...
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I can see at those tournaments or Fireworks or the like why winning certainly comes into play. Although those are considered exposure tournaments, they are also tournaments where teams want to win because of the prestige of the tournament. But at a fall tournament that is set up solely for college exposure, such as Best of the Best or Queen of Diamonds, I don't get sac bunting and worrying about the score of the game more than college exposure.
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If a tournament that advertises itself as a "College Showcase" has the attitude that teams have to play to win - to earn their spot back next year, then perhaps the event is misnamed.
I nominate the term "Tournament Doughcase", with the emphasis being on $Dough$. These prestige events charge a premium, right?
Like many things, when it is hard to evaluate an activity, most people fall back on the simple act of counting pebbles and think they are actually making a decision. Wins and losses are easy to count. Exposure? Hard to quantify...
Showcases should be about players, not about teams.
I nominate the term "Tournament Doughcase", with the emphasis being on $Dough$. These prestige events charge a premium, right?
Like many things, when it is hard to evaluate an activity, most people fall back on the simple act of counting pebbles and think they are actually making a decision. Wins and losses are easy to count. Exposure? Hard to quantify...
Showcases should be about players, not about teams.
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I agree that every effort should be made to showcase players in showcase tournaments. I will tell you though there are several other factors to consider.
First, the more prestigious recruiting tournaments (which attract more colleges) do require you to play well enough to justify your team being there. I made the mistake of too much "showcasing" in Boulder about 8 years ago and never will again. Winning is not everything, but losing a lot will get you knocked off the better fields and in some cases out of the tournament. You may not like this reality, but that does not change it.
Second, the showcase tournaments are an adjunct to the recruiting process, not the end all. If colleges get repeated exposure to an athlete through camps, emails, videos, etc. the showcase tournament is just one piece of the puzzle, albeit an important one. I can tell you I spend hours every week on the phone talking to college coaches and emailing them trying to help the girls get recruited. There is a lot more to this process than whether someone is bunting or not in a showcase game.
Third, it is helpful to play for a team that has had success getting athletes recruited. Those teams have earned some confidence from the college coaching community and their athletes often get an edge in the market place when all other things are equal. In addition, those teams are in front of colleges more often and hence the athlete is more likely to get a "mulligan" if she does not have a great day.
Fourth, if you look at the typical schedule of an 16U or 18U showcase team, it probably consists of 4 to 5 fall tournaments and 6 to 7 summer tournaments. Of those 10 to 12 tournaments, probably only 2 to 3 are comeptitive qualifiers or national tournaments. If you don't try to win in the other 75% or so tournaments when exactly are your girls going to learn how to play under comeptitive pressure? Sometimes that includes getting a bunt down so that when you are in a qualifier it is not the first time she has been asked to do it against a great pitcher. I don't want to bunt a kid who is being recruited, but I don't feel bad about bunting a girl who is already recruited if the situation dictates it. College recruiting is a big part of what many teams have to offer, but the thought that showcasing athletes means abandoning the basic competitive strategies of softball ignores the role the team must play in developing a player's skills. We are here to help our girls get recruited, but we are also here to train them on how to help a team win a softball game. The two goals certainly are not mutually exclusive, they are complimentary.
Like anything else, the proof is in the pudding. If your team is getting the girls recruited to schools that they can play competitively at, it is getting the job done regardless of whether you approve of the techniques being employed. If the kids are not getting recruited then you have to look critically at how things are being done.
First, the more prestigious recruiting tournaments (which attract more colleges) do require you to play well enough to justify your team being there. I made the mistake of too much "showcasing" in Boulder about 8 years ago and never will again. Winning is not everything, but losing a lot will get you knocked off the better fields and in some cases out of the tournament. You may not like this reality, but that does not change it.
Second, the showcase tournaments are an adjunct to the recruiting process, not the end all. If colleges get repeated exposure to an athlete through camps, emails, videos, etc. the showcase tournament is just one piece of the puzzle, albeit an important one. I can tell you I spend hours every week on the phone talking to college coaches and emailing them trying to help the girls get recruited. There is a lot more to this process than whether someone is bunting or not in a showcase game.
Third, it is helpful to play for a team that has had success getting athletes recruited. Those teams have earned some confidence from the college coaching community and their athletes often get an edge in the market place when all other things are equal. In addition, those teams are in front of colleges more often and hence the athlete is more likely to get a "mulligan" if she does not have a great day.
Fourth, if you look at the typical schedule of an 16U or 18U showcase team, it probably consists of 4 to 5 fall tournaments and 6 to 7 summer tournaments. Of those 10 to 12 tournaments, probably only 2 to 3 are comeptitive qualifiers or national tournaments. If you don't try to win in the other 75% or so tournaments when exactly are your girls going to learn how to play under comeptitive pressure? Sometimes that includes getting a bunt down so that when you are in a qualifier it is not the first time she has been asked to do it against a great pitcher. I don't want to bunt a kid who is being recruited, but I don't feel bad about bunting a girl who is already recruited if the situation dictates it. College recruiting is a big part of what many teams have to offer, but the thought that showcasing athletes means abandoning the basic competitive strategies of softball ignores the role the team must play in developing a player's skills. We are here to help our girls get recruited, but we are also here to train them on how to help a team win a softball game. The two goals certainly are not mutually exclusive, they are complimentary.
Like anything else, the proof is in the pudding. If your team is getting the girls recruited to schools that they can play competitively at, it is getting the job done regardless of whether you approve of the techniques being employed. If the kids are not getting recruited then you have to look critically at how things are being done.
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gtq, good post, I don't disagree with anything you said. I simply argue that at a tournament that is strictly a college exposure deal, such as Queen of Diamonds, I see no point in sac bunting.
I think sideliner made a good point when he said that if teams are required to win a certain amount of games to get invited back, then maybe they shouldn't label themselves as mainly college exposure events.
Incidentally, I have a friend who is a head coach at a nearby college who told me at Queen of Diamonds that she very much did want to see players sac bunting when she is scouting them. She is a friend of mine, but we were 180 degrees apart on this issue.
I think almost all college coaches agree with what you said about today's players needing to play under competitive pressure. It is disappointing to see how ill-prepared many college players are to deal with pressure situations in games and in battling for playing time.
I think sideliner made a good point when he said that if teams are required to win a certain amount of games to get invited back, then maybe they shouldn't label themselves as mainly college exposure events.
Incidentally, I have a friend who is a head coach at a nearby college who told me at Queen of Diamonds that she very much did want to see players sac bunting when she is scouting them. She is a friend of mine, but we were 180 degrees apart on this issue.
I think almost all college coaches agree with what you said about today's players needing to play under competitive pressure. It is disappointing to see how ill-prepared many college players are to deal with pressure situations in games and in battling for playing time.
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Joe - I have to piggyback on something gtq33 said. We are fortunate to be invited to play in a couple pretty big events in the Fall. During my conversations with one TD he did tell me that the coaches that attend their events expect to see the teams play every inning to win. His comment was that too many so-called showcases are killing the competitiveness of the players. You can still play everyone if you want to, but do the things that show the coaches that the kids know how to compete. That is different than I have done in the past. I never sac bunted and I moved kids all over the place. I called the other TD and he told me the exact same thing. I guess in the local ones we will play the old way, but in the biggies we will play to be competitive.
When I asked, they did infer that teams that get crushed, or lose all their games probably won't be back.
When I asked, they did infer that teams that get crushed, or lose all their games probably won't be back.
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LIKE
Great. I hate this don't play to win crapola. I hope this trends continues. Play everyone or some more then others but play to win dang dabbit!
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Joe, this is a former MADDOG coach
this was how we ran things
i don't think we ever coached against each other but we were at a few ASA nationals together
I had one person in charge of talking to and getting and giving information to coaches
I would also ask the coaches if they wanted to see a player in a certain spot
we also a lot of times invite coaches to our practices and scrimmages
Ohio teams are also not big on friendly tournaments like they are out west
for some reason they all think the kids want trophies, that is fine for anything below 14u
But 14u and up, we need to be getting these girls ready for college, and getting them seen
I'm not coaching at the moment, just giving lessons, but I still talk to coaches and I try to help my lesson girls to find a college that fits them
well that is it for now, I vented, doubt if it did any good
this was how we ran things
i don't think we ever coached against each other but we were at a few ASA nationals together
I had one person in charge of talking to and getting and giving information to coaches
I would also ask the coaches if they wanted to see a player in a certain spot
we also a lot of times invite coaches to our practices and scrimmages
Ohio teams are also not big on friendly tournaments like they are out west
for some reason they all think the kids want trophies, that is fine for anything below 14u
But 14u and up, we need to be getting these girls ready for college, and getting them seen
I'm not coaching at the moment, just giving lessons, but I still talk to coaches and I try to help my lesson girls to find a college that fits them
well that is it for now, I vented, doubt if it did any good
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Yes, I remember meeting you out in Seattle! There were only three of us there, you guys, us and Ron Poole's Ohio Ice team. You guys had a lot of experience at Nationals and Colorado, so you knew what the expectations were for marketing players. I am at the Lasers tournament this weekend and they have a booklet with roster information, which is good. About half of the teams have team and individual profiles available and a couple that use a coach or parent to talk to college coaches. I think things are improving each year here, but we still have a long way to go.
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Any other recommendations for tournament hosts? Some of the showcases here provide free drinks, snacks and/or meals for college coaches. I've seen preferred parking roped off for umpires. How about for college coaches?
Standard practice here is to have a single-sheet team profile with contact info for coaches, thumbnail profile for each player and the team's showcase/tournament schedule for the season. They also have an individual profile page for each player. Teams that put together booklets will find many in the trash with a couple pages ripped out because coaches don't want to carry a load of booklets around.
It is extremely important to have someone working the spectators to:
- Make sure every coach gets a team profile.
- Collect business cards from the coaches.
- Find out what the coach is looking for, suggest player(s) that match, offer player page and TAKE NOTES.
- Act as a liaison with dugout if coach wants to see a player bat, play a specific position or talk to team coach.
Teams should be prepared so a coach can exit the dugout to talk during a game.
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Great points all, So Cal Dad. Your post reminded me of all those things that are normally done out west. And they are done by pretty much every single team that is even halfway decent. My suggestions would mainly be for teams to read your post and follow it.
For tournament directors, yes, almost all of the showcases I attended in the West and Northwest provided drinks and meals for college coaches, sometimes had preferred parking and always had a booklet with directions and whatever else we needed. The other thing they all do is have college coaches register and then keep an updated list on their site of the colleges that are attending. This way the girls know who to write to if they have an interest.
For tournament directors, yes, almost all of the showcases I attended in the West and Northwest provided drinks and meals for college coaches, sometimes had preferred parking and always had a booklet with directions and whatever else we needed. The other thing they all do is have college coaches register and then keep an updated list on their site of the colleges that are attending. This way the girls know who to write to if they have an interest.
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Joe - not sure why you did not like those chicken fingers at Dayton - they cooked the outside - what can you expect?
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What kind of info should be included on the thumbnail profile?
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Player # & name (under photo); parents, address, Phone#, Email; Positions, Bats: L/R, Throws: L/R; High School, Class of 201x, GPA; High School awards; Travel Softball highlights (prior teams, national showcases/tournaments with notations for top-10 finishes); Verballed to xxx (I think the new one also has verballed players wearing the college sweatshirt).
Here is the front of a team profile page. The back has the rest of the players and the list of showcases/tournaments for the season. It is printed on very stiff paperstock so it can be written on without a flat surface underneath.
View attachment 57
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See, I could never be a college coach because I can't read anything that tiny. I filled out the Stingrays cover sheet last week and thought "boy I hope the coaches either have excellent vision or bring their reading glasses."
BTW, I did serve as our representative outside of the dugout on Friday at Lasers. Had some good interactions with a few coaches, but will admit that I didn't ask for their cards. Kind of figured that they would provide the cards if they were so inclined. There is always the official email address if we want to follow up.
BTW, I did serve as our representative outside of the dugout on Friday at Lasers. Had some good interactions with a few coaches, but will admit that I didn't ask for their cards. Kind of figured that they would provide the cards if they were so inclined. There is always the official email address if we want to follow up.
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Is that all that's holding you back?
It's not you - the uploaded file isn't legible because it doesn't have nearly the resolution of the original. Fine by me because I just wanted to show the general layout and didn't really want the girls info to be legible.
It is tight putting so much info on for so many players. I think they could omit some of the info on the team profile (e.g. HS awards and prior tourney info) and just have it on the player page, but they've been extremely successful doing this. Ohio teams can use larger fonts since they have less players on their rosters.
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This is a lot a great information, Thank you everyone...
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Is that all that's holding you back?
. . .
It is tight putting so much info on for so many players. I think they could omit some of the info on the team profile (e.g. HS awards and prior tourney info) and just have it on the player page, but they've been extremely successful doing this. Ohio teams can use larger fonts since they have less players on their rosters.
Actually, the Stingrays cover sheet, which contains most but not all of the information that you identified, is supposed to fit on one page, not including the back side. I did get to enlarge the font by one point, but it is still pretty small. We did have enough space to create a column on the page with our 2012 playing schedule.
And no, obviously the inability to read small fonts is not the only thing holding me back from coach college ball. There is that small issue of credentials, to say nothing of age and lack of playing experience. ;&
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Is that all that's holding you back?
. . .
It is tight putting so much info on for so many players. I think they could omit some of the info on the team profile (e.g. HS awards and prior tourney info) and just have it on the player page, but they've been extremely successful doing this. Ohio teams can use larger fonts since they have less players on their rosters.
Actually, the Stingrays cover sheet, which contains most but not all of the information that you identified, is supposed to fit on one page, not including the back side. I did get to enlarge the font by one point, but it is still pretty small. We did have enough space to create a column on the page with our 2012 playing schedule.
And no, obviously the inability to read small fonts is not the only thing holding me back from coaching college ball. There is that small issue of credentials, to say nothing of age and lack of playing experience. ;&
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