Be careful what you asked for: softball is becoming an elitist and an individual sport

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Like tjsmize, my mind was also spinning in trying to make sense of the quote... "elitism" as it relates to sport pedagogy on the topic of socioeconomic and multicultural diversity concerns in sport categorizes who or whom can compete on an equal playing field when you look at all aspects (remember title IX ) of gender, race, religion, demographics, socioeconomics)...

It's like I'm back at Ohio State in one of my Marxist professor's political science or sociology classes. I don't think anyone disagrees on the facts of what is happening in travel ball these days, but even if one were to agree that the direction is not good, what would your solutions be, billyk?

 

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Lots of good points raised on both sides of the coin here ... I do think it's a good debate for this forum, so I have no issue with Billy on that. I think the use of the word "elitism" is a bit over-the-top, and is causing a lot of people to take exception to it. With a few exceptions, one can argue that a lot of youth sports are going this direction though. Year-round opportunities and specialization make it difficult for kids to really excel at multiple sports, and yes, there are hitting/pitching/defense coaches, and for-profit organizations out there offering some of these opportunities, so that make it more difficult (though I don't think impossible) on some who are economically disadvantaged. I'm with JoeA on this though ... is it really a bad thing and, if so, what are the solutions?

 

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I think you could put EARNED ARROGANCE in this thread also.

 

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BillyK as I said I do not mean to offend nor do I mean to judge your intentions. I am sure you are a great guy, but we disagree severely -- that's all. You, of course, have the right to your opinion and this would certainly be an appropriate place to state it. When you say ... not for the good of the game or with the kids best interest when the profit margins increase and the time spent on those very things you discussed which relate to hard work and character building decrease and become a thing of the past....

I agree with your statement, but disagree that you are really describing what is actually happening in softball. As my daughter moved along from a predominantly USSSA team to an ASA regional team to an ASA Gold/PGF team we saw less display of bad character. Specifically, we saw less helmet throwing, less swearing on the bench, less disrespectful behavior by players/parents/coaches. We learned MORE about what it meant to compete with no fear and MORE about what class and respect truly meant. I would say the majority of teams we encountered ALL had similar expectations of their players and provided a similar environment. So when you call out the Beverly Bandits are you aware of the kids you imply are developing less character? Are you aware of the coaches you imply spend less time teaching intangibles. I know many of them and think the majority have exceptional character. That organization also is responsible for literally millions in scholarships for their players. You are correct that as you move toward the highest level of play there are more people trying to squeeze your pocket book. No doubt! But it simply does not follow that this leads to less time spent on character building ... simply go on the the BB Premiere Facebook website and read for yourself -- these are good people. Lastly, it certainly doesn't follow that when it's all said and done the expenses these families paid doesn't justify the end result (i.e. scholarship). Although there are fantastic coaches and organizations not playing at the Gold or PGF level, I simply disagree that hard work and character building decrease as you move towards creating higher level play. Would all of those college coaches really be flocking to see the less hard working and character deficient players play ... ??? I think it is a big mistake to worry about profit margins (as those things typically tend to work themselves out) and loose sight of the fantastic things happening in some of these organizations .... just my opinion.

 

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Like tjsmize, my mind was also spinning in trying to make sense of the quote... "elitism" as it relates to sport pedagogy on the topic of socioeconomic and multicultural diversity concerns in sport categorizes who or whom can compete on an equal playing field when you look at all aspects (remember title IX ) of gender, race, religion, demographics, socioeconomics)...

It's like I'm back at Ohio State in one of my Marxist professor's political science or sociology classes. I don't think anyone disagrees on the facts of what is happening in travel ball these days, but even if one were to agree that the direction is not good, what would your solutions be, billyk?

Hello Coach, I wish I had an complete solution, but I don't. I would like to see the surcharge or upcharge or whatever it is they call it these days on the "mandatory accommodations be done away with. I think going back to more double elimination tournaments without all the pool games, or the play in pool games with single elimination. Try and keep the tournaments to Friday later in the day at the earliest to begin. There are some good local tournaments, keep the better Ohio teams and players here to play. It wasn't that long ago when you could see many of the good in state teams playing, and a few of the neighboring states (Penn, Indiana) would be well represented. I think you if your could save money on the travel and hotel rooms, cut the mileage down, and keep it in state as much as possible. I know the argument is to play the better teams from different parts of the country, I thought Ohio was headed in the right direction a few years back - then we could get the teams here. Ohio is a great centralized location for East to meet West and North to meet South. If our game isn't good enough, then work to improve our game and keep our kids here in Ohio. I still have not convinced the majority of the people reading this post to realize my use of the terminology of "Elitism" is the sport becomes higher priced and eliminates many participants - there are many many so-called middle class families that even with sacrifice and finding ways to have their kids play, it is too big an expense to take on. Part of that is if the kids are paying fees to the organizations, maybe make them more accountable for the training so they do not have to pay private coaches??? If it is a sacrifice for the families of the kids, I think something could be worked out with more coaches involved to help the players keep their costs down. I need to think some more....to be continued....

 

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Maybe I'm mistaken but for handful of teams in ohio, most of the teams play in ohio and surrounding states. DD never payed for hitting clinics except for handful of times and played multiple sports.

 

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Hello Coach, I wish I had an complete solution, but I don't. I would like to see the surcharge or upcharge or whatever it is they call it these days on the "mandatory accommodations be done away with. I think going back to more double elimination tournaments without all the pool games, or the play in pool games with single elimination. Try and keep the tournaments to Friday later in the day at the earliest to begin. There are some good local tournaments, keep the better Ohio teams and players here to play. It wasn't that long ago when you could see many of the good in state teams playing, and a few of the neighboring states (Penn, Indiana) would be well represented. I think you if your could save money on the travel and hotel rooms, cut the mileage down, and keep it in state as much as possible. I know the argument is to play the better teams from different parts of the country, I thought Ohio was headed in the right direction a few years back - then we could get the teams here. Ohio is a great centralized location for East to meet West and North to meet South. If our game isn't good enough, then work to improve our game and keep our kids here in Ohio. I still have not convinced the majority of the people reading this post to realize my use of the terminology of "Elitism" is the sport becomes higher priced and eliminates many participants - there are many many so-called middle class families that even with sacrifice and finding ways to have their kids play, it is too big an expense to take on. Part of that is if the kids are paying fees to the organizations, maybe make them more accountable for the training so they do not have to pay private coaches??? If it is a sacrifice for the families of the kids, I think something could be worked out with more coaches involved to help the players keep their costs down. I need to think some more....to be continued....

So, if I read this correct it's only Ohio kids that are elitist! It's ok for other state to come here and play but not our kids to go out of state. The more you write the more confused I get!

 

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I tried to get some quick statistical data to back up another idea and I hit a dead end...I got nothing
So as I ended my last post with my tie in of the expense and becoming more of an individual sport put together as a team. Bringing back a team concept should in fact bring cost down also with more training within the organization without the cost if paying outside coaches and trainers-they do this on the west coast.

I didn't invent this wheel and I know there are some very good organizations who keep this in perspective - road runners elite
The original Ohio bandits
Are two that come to mind...

 

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And my apologies fourts
My answer to coach Abraham I should of explained i would reference Ohio

 

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Billy-
This is a darn good thread...

 

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So as I ended my last post with my tie in of the expense and becoming more of an individual sport put together as a team. Bringing back a team concept should in fact bring cost down also with more training within the organization without the cost if paying outside coaches and trainers-they do this on the west coast.

Can you provide some examples? It's a good idea. I just don't know of any orgs out here that are doing what you're suggesting. The big name orgs pretty much do the opposite - they require players to pay for specialized instruction.

Private instruction is the largest expense for many/most families. There are several ways that the cost of specialized instruction could be reduced by doing it more cost effectively per player.

- Mass production: Many of the instructors in high demand only do small groups and it is still difficult to get a spot with them. For examples, my DD's pitching coach does 2 pitchers at a time and Tony Rico has 4 students all hitting at the same time. Players don't need someone telling them what to do between every swing or pitch.

- Teach the teachers: Train coaches to work with their teams (e.g. Howard's lemmings?). Use them and/or more advanced students to help oversee less advanced ones during separate group lessons. Run the advanced group first and then have them stay to help run drills/stations with the next group.

- Self reliance: Don Sarno only sees his pitchers every 2-3 weeks. He gives them specific things to work on in between and requires progress the next time they get together.

 

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SoCal I sent email's to OC Batbusters Myers, Firecrackers Blanco, Arizona Hotshots Davis, Corona Angels General Box, California Strike Force gold, SoCal Athletics Sota, New Jersey Intensity KOD, and Beverly Bandits Conroy. If your have any general information on either of the above mentioned or any other club please let us know. Choosing what neighborhood you live in really depends on what the bank will let you have on your mortgage, and then you have to decide if you can afford it (I've already ruffled enough feathers I better not let this stray into the mortgage debacle that took place several years ago with the buy downs and interest only!) I have been looking up any old information I have from years back and it is just word of mouth - Chuck Smiley and doc Montgomery are the first to come to mind when we talk about Ohio softball in the beginning just to get a cost, sample training, and travel schedule - but may they RIP. If anyone has information on the Ohio organizations and budgets, again any reliable data is appreciated. One last stray, when Coach Abraham gave this thread a much needed positive move in the right direction, I thought back to the BH Abraham, Grand Slam, Lasers Aqua, Wolfpack Black, Nightmare, Lasers Purple, and Miami Valley Express - and the up and comers the Slammers - just using recent history from the mid 2000's. Many good kids, many college scholarships from single programs. Are they now dinosaurs? or was that the beginning as there has been a change in softball landscape with Ohio.

 

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Billy, you mention a lot of great teams who all have different costs and ways of doing things. I know for the Beverly Bandits and IL Chill programs you will pay around $2,000-2,500 in team fees. Remember though, you have to pay a lot more for practice fields/facilities in Chicago then in most Ohio communities. I know many of the Chicago kids work privately with Tammy Williams and some of the pro team Bandit's players. This is extra, but a nice connection to have with those programs. The most important thing you get for your money there though is the coach. Conroy, Kevin Stephens, Gerry Quinn, Pat Morris ... they all have multitudes of connections with college coaches and when a college program is looking for a player an endorsement from one of these guys goes a long way. Just take a look at their rosters. There are only a minority of their players not committed to a D-1 program. You mention some great Ohio programs that are doing some great things. I know MVX Gold follows the same structure as some of the bigger programs you mentioned (higher team fee, opportunity to play in high-level tournaments, dedication to promoting their kids to college programs, good reputation with some of those programs). Warren Wolff with the Ohio Outlaws is doing exactly as you mentioned in regards to keeping the game in OH. Take a look at the fall tournament he is putting together. He IS bringing many of the better US teams to OH this fall ... and along with them will come college coaches from some big programs. So really, Ohio is moving the same way as CA, IL, NJ, etc... just maybe a little bit slower. By the way ... I think your last sentence is correct in that a lot of the Ohio programs you mentioned got the ball rolling in this state. I think though, as the game changes a little you are going to see some unknown programs in Ohio become much bigger and some bigger programs decline.

 

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I find this to be complete hogwash in general.

A couple of things that are just not true.

Athletic achievement seems to be very tightly connected to motivation. If you look at pro sports you will see that many of the players come from very poor back rounds and have insanely horrible stories from growing up.

As far a cost to get specialized training. One of the best pitching coaches I know in all of the Midwest is FREE. And he has always been FREE. For the over 25+ years that I have known him.

I can only say that yes it makes it much easier to get there from here with money. But to act like somehow not having money will be a deal breaker is just not true.

Motivation is the key.

 

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LOL


QUOTE=fourts;468672]So, if I read this correct it's only Ohio kids that are elitist! It's ok for other state to come here and play but not our kids to go out of state. The more you write the more confused I get![/QUOTE]

 

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Billy can you give your stance on the idea I stated about parents in offering added training in other extracurriculars - dance, music, academics, etc? I am not sure if you avoided it accidentally or not. Do you consider them to be Elitist as well.

Just my opinion - but why are the things you mentioned bad for the sport? Do the costs stink? Yep. Are there too many for profit groups controlling the sport? Yep. Is training getting more specific and catching up to the west coast training? Yep. Are more kids playing than ever before? Yep. Are coaches being more educated? Yep.

If I read into your comments I am assuming at your position is that the sport is not healthy. I also assume that your position is that the sport is going in the wrong direction. I will leave you with a few comments.....

* There are a ton of people that believe the sport is in great shape. In fact the level of play has never been better. Teams flock to the events you describe as the villains. Personal training has never been more professional and universally sought after. Costs are definitely up - but somehow teams are paying it by using creative scheduling.
* Organizations will never respond to you accurately with their costs for their Gold level teams. The organizations you mentioned range from $2500 per season to $10k (limited fall season) per season and those numbers do not include travel in most cases. The reason it isn't publicized is because not all players pay the same amount.

Billy many of us have dogs in this hunt and we do our best to help the kids and the sport. My question to you is simple. If the sport is going wrong in your mind, what exactly are YOU PERSONALLY doing to help move the sport to a place that you believe is where it should be?

Flarays
Never once did I say I was the only one who knows so your accusation is an assumption in itself being off base. I am giving opinion taking into consideration more than just team fees - as I addressed many economic issues

And as for your individualized approach to the sport I agree 100% about individualized work. The context of my opinion is the concept of team sport is going by the wayside without organized team practices. Now as a coach if you are comfortable with just meeting on occasion and playing games that is your call for your team. And if your team includes fall and winter an summer workouts at no additional charge for facilities as it is incorporated in your fees-fantastic!

 

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SoCal I sent email's to OC Batbusters Myers, Firecrackers Blanco, Arizona Hotshots Davis, Corona Angels General Box, California Strike Force gold, SoCal Athletics Sota, New Jersey Intensity KOD, and Beverly Bandits Conroy.
Who, if any, responded?

If your have any general information on either of the above mentioned or any other club please let us know.
I have specific information on a team in one of those org's last year: team fees $2k, weekly speed training $25/session, all the hitters paid $40-50/hhr for weekly hitting instruction (many with the org founder), all the pitchers paid $40-50/hhr weekly with their private instructors and many of the fielders paid for weekly fielding lessons. The team practiced fielding, hitting and pitching with some coaching and instruction, but it didn't replace the other instruction. For tryouts, teams usually ask for contact information on the players' instructors and it is a factor in whom they invite to try out.

Choosing what neighborhood you live in really depends on what the bank will let you have on your mortgage, and then you have to decide if you can afford it (I've already ruffled enough feathers I better not let this stray into the mortgage debacle that took place several years ago with the buy downs and interest only!)...

Has the prescription run out on your meds? ;&

 

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So, after seeing this thread go on for six pages, the thought is basically "Geez, how can people justify the high prices of Tournament Ball? Can't something be done to make it affordable to everyone?"

If Beverly Bandits, Coach X, Tournament Y, etc. charge too much, and people don't show up, that's Free Enterprise.

Parents have a choice - write the checks, or don't. That's the American way.

Forcing it to be affordable - that sounds dangerously close to Socialism.



Bottom line; if a person chooses to do this "elitist" stuff, that's their business.

 

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Not to toot my own horn (toot, toot!), but I saw this all coming back in the mid-2000s before I got into college ball. I had neither the time nor the resources to keep up with it, so any team I would have coached the last five years would have been more in the same mode my old team was in (mostly Ohio tourneys, with an ASA Nationals, Colorado, Rising Starts or its equivalent mixed in here and there). But the year-round training, traveling out of state every other weekend or more, leasing out or buying indoor facilities, sponsorships, etc., was more than I could have handled.

Having said all of that, I think what has happened is much more positive than negative for the game. With the bigger amounts of money now involved, I think it's much more possible to subsidize a girl who does not have the means to play on the Bandits type of teams. My team certainly couldn't afford to pay for a girl who couldn't afford the costs and about every girl I had from 2000-2008 (or most other top teams for that matter, as I can recall) was middle class to upper-middle class. I imagine maybe now there are girls who stay with the Buckeye Heat, Stingrays, Classics, etc., because of cost, rather than go to the Bandits or one of the other national type of clubs. But I also would guess that if the Bandits really want someone, they will figure out a way to make it happen. I know that's how it worked with the top organizations in Washington/Oregon when I was there.

The next step I see is a move closer to so@@er where coaches are making a living as travel ball coaches and organizations are huge enterprises (I think Ohio Premier so@@er is/was like that, but I don't know for sure). Or even like slow-pitch softball where teams or organizations are completely sponsored by corporations. Once the corporate sponsorship occurs every traditional organization will be taking a back seat in terms of competitiveness. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, where you have the Ohio Lasers/Easton/Ringor or some such combination and the corporations simply pay for everything permitted under NCAA rules.

For Ohio, the current situation seems to be yielding more girls signing with BCS schools. I think the Bandits have at least a half dozen girls committed to those schools and many of them would have been going to just Ohio State or the MAC just five years ago. Of course, the question becomes whether those same girls would have been as good of players in the old system and just unknown to the SEC or Pac 12. My hunch is that stepping up to play the Bandits type of schedule has made them at least somewhat better players and the schedule has given them exposure they wouldn't otherwise have had, so it's that combination that has resulted in bigger opportunities.

I think to open up more opportunity for the less fortunate girls, they have to be brought in before they are about 13 years old. After that, it's probably too late for most of them to develop into college prospects without a ton of work. So the problem that Billy identifies would have to be solved by organizations deciding to commit resources to younger teams and making an effort to find those families. Who is going to pay for that? It isn't going to be the typical travel ball family that is already squeezed just to pay for their own kid. It would have to be corporations as part of their sponsorship of teams.

 

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One major option was supposed to be MLB's RBI program. But that is designated for "inner city" programs only. In Orlando we put together a group of coaches that were going to volunteer to work the program with softball - MLB has committed to softball growth as well. After 9 months of trying to get responses other than "What a great idea. We love your plan. Lets make it work" our resolve faded. Even the HS coaches that were at first interested failed to follow though. So I guess the reality is if you want to be in the game you will find your appropriate level.