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Looking to see what bat people prefer?
Thanks for the great input everyone!
Thanks for the great input everyone!
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My dd loves her Demarini Phenix 08 bat....
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Best bat is the one they can hit with....every girl is different, and likes a different feel to their bat. There is no right or wrong answer.
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We always buy are bats based on how pretty they are painted. Sometimes we will also try and color cordinate with our uniforms, but that can be a hassle if the bat companys switch colors every year. 
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Lady Knights,
I agree with your answer 100%......................
I agree with your answer 100%......................
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Tbolts is right, i remember him doing the same thing when he played ;D
(hey Brent, you going tonight?)
(hey Brent, you going tonight?)
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Everyone has an opinion on what bat to use and if one girl is hitting the crap out of the ball then that is the bat to use or buy that day or hour. However look at how she swings and be honest with yourself and say does she have better swing mechanics than your daughter?
And yes bat speed and techniques for hitting the ball does matter?Google this guys web site and read it for yourself?if your interested. I use the Swing Speed Radar unit from Sports Sensors, Inc. to measure bat speed.
Asking a parent how fast they think their kids bat speed is like asking a parent whose daughter pitches how fast they throw?WOW! 65 to 70 MPH and she is only 12 years old?WOW! Well step up to the plate and lets measure her bat speed?.whoops it is only 48 to 54 MPH today?it must be her off day today and I understand!
They are amazed when we change a few things in their swing mechanics to see their bat speed go to 58 to 64 MPH?but that is another story.
I have demonstrated to many coaches and players at various levels what I felt increased the hitters bat speed and then backed it up with data to support. The players saw for themselves the difference in bat speed and I can assure you they were not hitting down on the ball or swinging level. Look at post from the Team USA and Oklahoma.
Howard
Physics and Acoustics of Baseball & Softball Bats
Daniel A. Russell, Ph.D.
Applied Physics, Kettering University, Flint, MI 48504-4898
The contents of this page are ?2003-2008 Daniel A. Russell
"To see the effects of bat weight and bat speed, here is a summary of an experiment that I found summarized in a 1980 high-school textbook, Physics of Sports developed by Florida State University.[6] For this experiment, the ball mass, pitch speed, and bat swing speed were all kept constant. Only the bat mass was changed. The data shows that a heavier bat produces a faster batted ball speed. This makes intuitive sense since a heavier bat brings more momentum into the collision. Doubling the mass of the bat results in an increase of almost 12mph. So, using a heavier bat should result in faster hit balls, which means the hit ball will travel farther. If a player can maintain the same bat swing speed with a heavier bat, the heavier bat will produce higher batted ball velocity and an increase in distance.
But, any player who has experimented swinging bats with widely different weights knows that it is easier to swing a light bat than a heavier bat. Put another way, it takes more effort to swing a heavy bat with the same speed as it does a lighter bat, and most players cannot swing a heavy bat as quickly as they can a bat which is half the weight. So, we need to see how the batted ball speed depends on bat swing speed.
Perhaps a pertinent question is why a major league power hitter would choose to use a lighter bat (say 32oz) when an optimal 41oz bat would produce a higher batted ball velocity? Two possibilities come to mind. First, the fact that you can swing a lighter bat faster means that you can wait just a little bit longer before committing to a swing. For a professional, the ability to wait even 1/10th of a second longer to watch a pitched ball can result in a considerable improvement in the chance of making contact. Secondly, most hitters can control a lighter bat more effectively than they can a heavier bat. Bat control affects the location of the bat as it crosses the plate, and more control over bat location is definitely a good thing when the pitched ball crosses the plate considerable variation in height or distance from the batter. Notice further, from the plot for the major league power hitter, that for bat weights in the range of 35oz to 45oz there is very minor change in the batted ball velocity. Using a 33oz bat instead of a 41oz bat will only very slightly reduce the batted ball velocity, but it will have a significant affect on the bat swing speed and the resulting swing time. Based on such a trade-off between ball speed and bat control, Bahill has defined the Ideal Bat WeightTM as the weight at which the batted ball speed drops 1% below the speed of the optimum batted ball speed bat weight. As shown in the plot, the Ideal Bat Weight for the power hitter is about 32-33oz. This is right in the weight range used by most professional players.
There is a little problem with the analysis contained in this page. All of the physics used to derive the optimum mass and the batted ball speed assume that the ball hits the bat at its center-of-mass. This very rarely happens - hits at the sweet spot are several inches from the center-of-mass. There is another very important parameter of the bat which affects how quickly you can swing a bat, and what the final ball speed is. This parameter involves the distribution of mass along the length of the bat and how that mass distribution affects the motion of a rotating object. In physics we refer to this parameter as the moment of inertia.
Batted-Ball Speed and Bat Speed.
The final speed with which a baseball or softball may be hit depends on the pitched speed of the ball, the swing speed of the bat and elastic interaction between the bat and ball The collision efficiency, eA, depends on the bat-ball
coefficient-of-restitution as well as the inertia properties of the bat. For a high performance slow-pitch softball bat hitting a 375-lb/0.44 COR ball4 the value
of eA is typically around 0.180. Thus Eq. (1) indicatesthat bat swing speed is far more important than the pitched ball speed. Experimental measurements from
field tests and batting-cage studies5 confirm that if the same bat is used, a faster swing results in a faster maximum batted-ball speed. So, if a player can increase his/her bat swing speed the ball will leave the bat faster. The first motion in swinging a bat, shown in frames (a)-(c) of Fig. 3, is a ?pull forward? motion in which the player simply pulls the knob of the bat forwards while rotating the upper body. The angle between the bat and arms remains approximately 90[ch61616] and the arms and bat pivot together about a point between
the player?s shoulders. During this portion of the swing the actual weight of the bat would be most important since the player is essentially holding the
bat and pulling it forward. The entire mass of the bat is located the end of the arms and has the same orientation to the player?s body. I have been told
that good amateur players can detect a one-ounce variation
And yes bat speed and techniques for hitting the ball does matter?Google this guys web site and read it for yourself?if your interested. I use the Swing Speed Radar unit from Sports Sensors, Inc. to measure bat speed.
Asking a parent how fast they think their kids bat speed is like asking a parent whose daughter pitches how fast they throw?WOW! 65 to 70 MPH and she is only 12 years old?WOW! Well step up to the plate and lets measure her bat speed?.whoops it is only 48 to 54 MPH today?it must be her off day today and I understand!
They are amazed when we change a few things in their swing mechanics to see their bat speed go to 58 to 64 MPH?but that is another story.
I have demonstrated to many coaches and players at various levels what I felt increased the hitters bat speed and then backed it up with data to support. The players saw for themselves the difference in bat speed and I can assure you they were not hitting down on the ball or swinging level. Look at post from the Team USA and Oklahoma.
Howard
Physics and Acoustics of Baseball & Softball Bats
Daniel A. Russell, Ph.D.
Applied Physics, Kettering University, Flint, MI 48504-4898
The contents of this page are ?2003-2008 Daniel A. Russell
"To see the effects of bat weight and bat speed, here is a summary of an experiment that I found summarized in a 1980 high-school textbook, Physics of Sports developed by Florida State University.[6] For this experiment, the ball mass, pitch speed, and bat swing speed were all kept constant. Only the bat mass was changed. The data shows that a heavier bat produces a faster batted ball speed. This makes intuitive sense since a heavier bat brings more momentum into the collision. Doubling the mass of the bat results in an increase of almost 12mph. So, using a heavier bat should result in faster hit balls, which means the hit ball will travel farther. If a player can maintain the same bat swing speed with a heavier bat, the heavier bat will produce higher batted ball velocity and an increase in distance.
But, any player who has experimented swinging bats with widely different weights knows that it is easier to swing a light bat than a heavier bat. Put another way, it takes more effort to swing a heavy bat with the same speed as it does a lighter bat, and most players cannot swing a heavy bat as quickly as they can a bat which is half the weight. So, we need to see how the batted ball speed depends on bat swing speed.
Perhaps a pertinent question is why a major league power hitter would choose to use a lighter bat (say 32oz) when an optimal 41oz bat would produce a higher batted ball velocity? Two possibilities come to mind. First, the fact that you can swing a lighter bat faster means that you can wait just a little bit longer before committing to a swing. For a professional, the ability to wait even 1/10th of a second longer to watch a pitched ball can result in a considerable improvement in the chance of making contact. Secondly, most hitters can control a lighter bat more effectively than they can a heavier bat. Bat control affects the location of the bat as it crosses the plate, and more control over bat location is definitely a good thing when the pitched ball crosses the plate considerable variation in height or distance from the batter. Notice further, from the plot for the major league power hitter, that for bat weights in the range of 35oz to 45oz there is very minor change in the batted ball velocity. Using a 33oz bat instead of a 41oz bat will only very slightly reduce the batted ball velocity, but it will have a significant affect on the bat swing speed and the resulting swing time. Based on such a trade-off between ball speed and bat control, Bahill has defined the Ideal Bat WeightTM as the weight at which the batted ball speed drops 1% below the speed of the optimum batted ball speed bat weight. As shown in the plot, the Ideal Bat Weight for the power hitter is about 32-33oz. This is right in the weight range used by most professional players.
There is a little problem with the analysis contained in this page. All of the physics used to derive the optimum mass and the batted ball speed assume that the ball hits the bat at its center-of-mass. This very rarely happens - hits at the sweet spot are several inches from the center-of-mass. There is another very important parameter of the bat which affects how quickly you can swing a bat, and what the final ball speed is. This parameter involves the distribution of mass along the length of the bat and how that mass distribution affects the motion of a rotating object. In physics we refer to this parameter as the moment of inertia.
Batted-Ball Speed and Bat Speed.
The final speed with which a baseball or softball may be hit depends on the pitched speed of the ball, the swing speed of the bat and elastic interaction between the bat and ball The collision efficiency, eA, depends on the bat-ball
coefficient-of-restitution as well as the inertia properties of the bat. For a high performance slow-pitch softball bat hitting a 375-lb/0.44 COR ball4 the value
of eA is typically around 0.180. Thus Eq. (1) indicatesthat bat swing speed is far more important than the pitched ball speed. Experimental measurements from
field tests and batting-cage studies5 confirm that if the same bat is used, a faster swing results in a faster maximum batted-ball speed. So, if a player can increase his/her bat swing speed the ball will leave the bat faster. The first motion in swinging a bat, shown in frames (a)-(c) of Fig. 3, is a ?pull forward? motion in which the player simply pulls the knob of the bat forwards while rotating the upper body. The angle between the bat and arms remains approximately 90[ch61616] and the arms and bat pivot together about a point between
the player?s shoulders. During this portion of the swing the actual weight of the bat would be most important since the player is essentially holding the
bat and pulling it forward. The entire mass of the bat is located the end of the arms and has the same orientation to the player?s body. I have been told
that good amateur players can detect a one-ounce variation
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Howard,
That was an interesting article. ?Have you ever worked with a girl in the 11 ? 15 year old range and been able to measure the bat speed difference and observe hitting performance differences on a good pitcher if the girl used a heavier feeling end loaded bat (say Rocket tech) vs. a high end more balanced feeling bat (maybe one of the -10 composites or even a -11 like the SC 888 Stealth) of the same length. ?Very curious as to what you have observed. ?My daughter uses a 32 inch RT and can hit it pretty well. ?She?s 13, 5?-4? and about 122 pounds. ?When I hold the RT in one hand and hit infield however it feels kind of heavy and much harder to control than something more balanced. ?She asked for the RT and likes it well enough but I don?t know if that?s because she knows I paid over $200 for it. ?What if any differences have you personally seen with bat speed and other hitting measurables or observations between these different types of bats with the same hitter?
That was an interesting article. ?Have you ever worked with a girl in the 11 ? 15 year old range and been able to measure the bat speed difference and observe hitting performance differences on a good pitcher if the girl used a heavier feeling end loaded bat (say Rocket tech) vs. a high end more balanced feeling bat (maybe one of the -10 composites or even a -11 like the SC 888 Stealth) of the same length. ?Very curious as to what you have observed. ?My daughter uses a 32 inch RT and can hit it pretty well. ?She?s 13, 5?-4? and about 122 pounds. ?When I hold the RT in one hand and hit infield however it feels kind of heavy and much harder to control than something more balanced. ?She asked for the RT and likes it well enough but I don?t know if that?s because she knows I paid over $200 for it. ?What if any differences have you personally seen with bat speed and other hitting measurables or observations between these different types of bats with the same hitter?
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I have a 13U that works with Howard. ?She is not able to handle an end loaded RT. She swings a balanced bat. ? What Lady Knight stated is true each kid is different. ?I work wth hitters at the high school level. I ?told Howard this story. I had a softmore that her parents had bought her a really nice expensive end loaded bat. ?She couldn't get it around in time to handle the speed of the pitching she was facing ,so her bad speed suffered. ? I had this 15 year old change to one of our balanced bats. She went 3 for 3 that game and the next game she hit her first ?Home Run . ?It is all about what works best for that kid. ? ?I see many high school kids using RT's and they are chocking up, because they can't get ?the bat around in time. ?Howard can give you the stats on how much strength you give up by chocking up. Just because you spent $300 and a bat has good rating's doesn't ,mean its the best for that kid. Keep in mind the best softball player on the USA team only swings at 78.l BSI.
Lady Knights dd has great bat speed. but not even close to the above..
Lady Knights dd has great bat speed. but not even close to the above..
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Yes. I measure the bat speed on most new students or if I need to prove a point as why we do a certain technique a certain way.
We like to think of it in measurable and observable terms?if the kids feel it and we can show them the data it makes it easier for them to accept and use it in a game situation. It is like balance?would you know it if you saw it or felt it and then how could you test for it. If you have been to one of our clinics you saw us do it and prove it.
A lot of parents focus on using a heavier bat against slower pitchers and lighter bats against faster pitchers. The hitter must understand rhythm and timing so they can make adjustments as each pitcher should be changing speeds and locations as to in/ out or up/ down?so what bat do I suddenly switch too in the middle of my swing?
In my opinion if you do not understand the hand path and how to generate the momentum it doesn?t matter what bat you are using as you will probably be inconsistent.
The end loaded bats cause more bat drag in the inexperienced hitters using what I would term flawed techniques such as swinging level or down on the ball, not allowing the elbow to slot and clear the body or making a bad first move i.e. the hands going over the plate or what some term casting out. We think in terms of the hands inside the ball and not the knob of the bat to the ball. We try to get them to think pulling the bat from behind their head or whipping it around versus pushing the bat forward.
If you do not think the elblow makes a differnce in power and speed try this...take a rope and put a knot on one end and have the hitter put both hands on the rope at the knot and pull forward keeping the elbow away slightly from the body but far enough away so that the elbow clears the body ( we term this slotting) while leading with her lead arm elbow and pulling up to the point where she would make contact with the ball in front of the plate. Both of you will feel the power. Now repeat and let her drop the back elbow so it comes in contact with the body or does not clear the body and she has no power.
We see some kids lay the bat backwards or tilted back because some coaches believe it makes their bat quicker especially if they are using end loaded bats. Now if they use an end loaded bat with some of these techniques it makes their effort get worse and when you challenge their techniques and then show them their bat speed they accept the changes and trust me no one wants to change.
Provided you can hit the ball versus bat speed?if you could swing lets say a 23 ounce bat 60 MPH and you could swing a 26 ounce end loaded bat the same speed absolutely use the end loaded bat as F=M x A?force equals mass times acceleration and the ball will go farther if struck properly with all other things being equal. However if your bat speed falls off 5 to 10 percent I would not recommend it.
The next time you are hitting infield try this?start the bat slightly behind your head with the top of your hand at the top of your shoulder and allow your elbow to come down with your fist stacked above your elbow and hit the ball thinking your hand is above the plane of the pitch and inside the path of the ball and you are pulling the bat through and see how that makes the bat feel quicker or lighter. Then when you want to hit grounders allow your hand to get ahead of your elbow and to hit pop ups or higher fly balls allow the elbow to get ahead of the hands. Then PM me and we can take it to another level.
I have a girl who is 5? 1? and weighs 111 pounds that can hit the ball 240 feet with a 32 ? Louisville Catalyst and she does not like the feel of the end loaded bats?her choice not mine and she does real well.
Look at the thread USA-Oklahoma also about bat speed.
Hope this helps?
Howard
We like to think of it in measurable and observable terms?if the kids feel it and we can show them the data it makes it easier for them to accept and use it in a game situation. It is like balance?would you know it if you saw it or felt it and then how could you test for it. If you have been to one of our clinics you saw us do it and prove it.
A lot of parents focus on using a heavier bat against slower pitchers and lighter bats against faster pitchers. The hitter must understand rhythm and timing so they can make adjustments as each pitcher should be changing speeds and locations as to in/ out or up/ down?so what bat do I suddenly switch too in the middle of my swing?
In my opinion if you do not understand the hand path and how to generate the momentum it doesn?t matter what bat you are using as you will probably be inconsistent.
The end loaded bats cause more bat drag in the inexperienced hitters using what I would term flawed techniques such as swinging level or down on the ball, not allowing the elbow to slot and clear the body or making a bad first move i.e. the hands going over the plate or what some term casting out. We think in terms of the hands inside the ball and not the knob of the bat to the ball. We try to get them to think pulling the bat from behind their head or whipping it around versus pushing the bat forward.
If you do not think the elblow makes a differnce in power and speed try this...take a rope and put a knot on one end and have the hitter put both hands on the rope at the knot and pull forward keeping the elbow away slightly from the body but far enough away so that the elbow clears the body ( we term this slotting) while leading with her lead arm elbow and pulling up to the point where she would make contact with the ball in front of the plate. Both of you will feel the power. Now repeat and let her drop the back elbow so it comes in contact with the body or does not clear the body and she has no power.
We see some kids lay the bat backwards or tilted back because some coaches believe it makes their bat quicker especially if they are using end loaded bats. Now if they use an end loaded bat with some of these techniques it makes their effort get worse and when you challenge their techniques and then show them their bat speed they accept the changes and trust me no one wants to change.
Provided you can hit the ball versus bat speed?if you could swing lets say a 23 ounce bat 60 MPH and you could swing a 26 ounce end loaded bat the same speed absolutely use the end loaded bat as F=M x A?force equals mass times acceleration and the ball will go farther if struck properly with all other things being equal. However if your bat speed falls off 5 to 10 percent I would not recommend it.
The next time you are hitting infield try this?start the bat slightly behind your head with the top of your hand at the top of your shoulder and allow your elbow to come down with your fist stacked above your elbow and hit the ball thinking your hand is above the plane of the pitch and inside the path of the ball and you are pulling the bat through and see how that makes the bat feel quicker or lighter. Then when you want to hit grounders allow your hand to get ahead of your elbow and to hit pop ups or higher fly balls allow the elbow to get ahead of the hands. Then PM me and we can take it to another level.
I have a girl who is 5? 1? and weighs 111 pounds that can hit the ball 240 feet with a 32 ? Louisville Catalyst and she does not like the feel of the end loaded bats?her choice not mine and she does real well.
Look at the thread USA-Oklahoma also about bat speed.
Hope this helps?
Howard
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Lady Knights is correct, no right or wrong, i have 2 juniors on our varsity team i have started working with, one uses a balanced and one uses an RT, neither have had a homerun till this year and now both have 2, as long as the mechanics are sound, the bat choice is secondary, depends on what they are comfortable with, but for pure enjoyment, theres nothing like the sound a RT makes when a big power hitter connects with the ball on the sweet spot............
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Good post about mechanic's . I have had a few arguments when it comes to bats. I tell them spend the $300 on lessons instead of the bat. They still want to argue that the bat wll still fix the problem. Then I have a saying. If your spouse was a poor cook, would you fix the problem with a brand new expensive stove?
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Excellent input. I understand that it is different for each kid. The vibe I am picking up seems to be the a medium built kid with average strength can't really handle the RT and in all of the cases stated improved performance with the balanced bat. Is that a fair take away based on experience when it comes to the level of player I have discribed or do you have good RT testemonies from kids in this age and size level against quality pitching where the RT has proven a beneficial bat. Is this bats end weighting in general too much for all but very strong kids in your opinions?
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We have kids that use a variety of bats i.e. Rip It, Catalyst, Miken, Worth, Easton, Anderson, Schutt, Mizuno and they all hit home runs with them?some more than others but all are capable of clearing a 225 foot fence. The common trait is they all use a linear weight shift and basically swing like Coach Larabee taught this year at his camps if you attended.
In my opinion they understand the hand path better than most of the coaches they play for especially in high school and that is not a shot at the coaches it is a fact. When you hear a coach preaching swing level or swing down or moving them all the way up to the front of the box there are issues lurking in the shadows.
I?ve got big girls that use balanced bats and smaller girls using end loaded bats however we train with bats I?ve designed that has weight that slides inside the bats to build muscle memory in the hands to create our hand path.
Bottom line as SBfamily put it save your money and find a camp or clinic that will teach her something and take her to someone you trust. If you have any money left buy what YOU can afford and she will hit just fine.
Howard
In my opinion they understand the hand path better than most of the coaches they play for especially in high school and that is not a shot at the coaches it is a fact. When you hear a coach preaching swing level or swing down or moving them all the way up to the front of the box there are issues lurking in the shadows.
I?ve got big girls that use balanced bats and smaller girls using end loaded bats however we train with bats I?ve designed that has weight that slides inside the bats to build muscle memory in the hands to create our hand path.
Bottom line as SBfamily put it save your money and find a camp or clinic that will teach her something and take her to someone you trust. If you have any money left buy what YOU can afford and she will hit just fine.
Howard
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A bat is just an extension of the swing, RT in the right hands is a weapon.
I have been at HS games with a group of travelball parents with an arsonal of high end bats in the dugouts, we get laughing when a ball is crushed and hits the fence with a $29 Jenny Finch Pink by a non-travelball player and it was the furthest ball hit that day.
I have been at HS games with a group of travelball parents with an arsonal of high end bats in the dugouts, we get laughing when a ball is crushed and hits the fence with a $29 Jenny Finch Pink by a non-travelball player and it was the furthest ball hit that day.
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What ever bat your kid can hit with ;D
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