Bretman and all others, Mechanics of this call

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Runner on third, Sacrifice Fly hit to the outfield, runner tags and appears to score catching the plate with her hand as she does a slide by. Fans start yelling she missed the plate, umpire signals the runner safe, runner goes to the dugout, other team appeals and the umpire calls her out. Also just happened to be the tying run in the bottom of the 8th. Call results in double play, game over.

My question is what is are the proper mechanics for the home plate umpire in this situation?

 

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Umpire should not have signalled the runner safe if he thought she missed the plate.

 

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Runner is considered safe in this instance till the appeal. The plate umpire is to delay giving the signal for a few seconds to see if any other play on the runner was going to be made. At that point, if the catcher makes no move towards the runner, and the runner is proceeding to her dugout, the only call is safe. When a proper appeal is made, then at that time the runner would be called out.

 

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Not clear from your description: Was there a tag attempt by the catcher as the runner slid across the plate?

That detail would make a difference on what exactly the umpire should be signalling.

Assuming that there WAS NOT a tag attempt, the correct signal for the umpire would be...nothing! This goes to the philosophy of "no ball, no call". If there isn't a tag or play being made on the runner, no signal is required. Think about it this way- suppose a batter hit an in-the-park home run. As she circles the bases, does the umpire signal "safe" as she passes each base? Of course not. If there isn't an attempt by the defense to put out the runner at a given base, then there is NOTHING for the umpire to be signalling.

If there was a tag attempt on your play, that does change things. If the tag is unsuccessful and the runner misses the plate, the umpire should signal "safe". The runner is safe because the tag attempt failed and because, by rule, any runner that passes a base is considered to have touched it unless properly appealed that she did not.

There are a couple of reasons why umpires are instructed to handle this play as described.

First, there must be a signal and call for the tag attempt. If the runner was out on the tag, all the other stuff about missing the plate and an appeal is pretty much moot. If she wasn't out, then she is safe, whether she touched the plate or not.

The other reason is that if the umpire gives no signal, it just about automatically tips off the defense that the base was missed. That gives the defense an unintended advantge in executing their appeal. If the runner did miss the base, it's up to defense to see and recognize that for themselves and we don't want the umpires helping them out. And, if the runner did miss the base, it's up to her to recognize that and try to retouch it.

So, "safe" is the absolutely correct signal in this situation. What happens next can be interesting and the umpire needs to stay alert! The runner can retouch the base up until the point where she enters the dugout or dead-ball area. The defense can either tag the base or the runner for a live ball appeal before the runner retouches, or can make a verbal dead ball appeal anytime before the next pitch.

 

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Agree with Bretman. You as an umpire NEVER tip off the other defensive team by not making a signal. The same thing happens at first as well. If the runner beats the ball and is past the base then you say safe and then when the first baseman tags the runner saying she missed the base... then you call an out. You never tip off the defensive team.

Believe you me, coaches explode over that type of calling .. but as an umpire that is what you do in the mechanics side of umpiring.

 

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A strange side note: On a play at the plate, baseball teaches their umpires the exact opposite! If the runner misses the plate and the defense misses the tag, the umpire is to give no signal.

Why the difference? Really nothing more than the convention that has been established and evolved over the years. I think that maybe they want to avoid a "safe/out" call because it looks confusing, or just want to leave the whole thing up to the players to figure out what to do next.

So, if you have kids playing baseball, or are watching a game on the tube, and you see the umpre do "nothing" on this play...that's right, too!

 

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And that is why most coaches go off the wall when you call safe and then out because they look at it from the baseball side of things.

Then you get the , " You let them talk you right into that call UMP !!!!!!" Then sometimes other choice words are said.... LOL And usually that is a given !!!

Then you throw the coach out for the "choice words" and then you get to hear that you threw the coach out because he questioned " the call" ....LOL

Can't win for losing ... LOL

 

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You gotta love umpiring Bretman !!!!!

 

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A strange side note: On a play at the plate, baseball teaches their umpires the exact opposite! If the runner misses the plate and the defense misses the tag, the umpire is to give no signal.

Why the difference? Really nothing more than the convention that has been established and evolved over the years. I think that maybe they want to avoid a "safe/out" call because it looks confusing, or just want to leave the whole thing up to the players to figure out what to do next.

So, if you have kids playing baseball, or are watching a game on the tube, and you see the umpre do "nothing" on this play...that's right, too!

I did not know there was a difference in this call between baseball and softball. I just learned something new. Thanks

 

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A strange side note: On a play at the plate, baseball teaches their umpires the exact opposite! If the runner misses the plate and the defense misses the tag, the umpire is to give no signal.

Why the difference? Really nothing more than the convention that has been established and evolved over the years. I think that maybe they want to avoid a "safe/out" call because it looks confusing, or just want to leave the whole thing up to the players to figure out what to do next.

So, if you have kids playing baseball, or are watching a game on the tube, and you see the umpre do "nothing" on this play...that's right, too!

I did not know there was a difference in this call between baseball and softball. I just learned something new. Thanks

Thanks Bretman, I learned something new too!

I was wondering about the baseball side of it because of a play I was in as a teenager. Many years ago, before the "slide to avoid contact" rules, I got caught in a situation where my only option was to try to jump over the catcher. While I'm above average in height, I play baseball, not basketball and I'm not known for jumping that high! In trying to go over the catcher I went past the plate too (without touching it) and the catcher dropped the ball. I looked up to see the ump just looking down at the two of us. I turned over and put my hand on the plate, then the ump called safe (just as you described). But now I'll know not to expect that "no call" at my DD's games!

 

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Yep - for all the bashing I give Bret sometimes I will chime in and say I learned something new too! Thanks for taking the time to explain so clearly Bret!

 

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First Bret there was no tag attempt as the catcher did not come up clean with the throw.

My problem with the mechanics of giving a safe call is that in all the worry about not giving the defense an advantage that is exactly what making the safe call in this instance did.

The runner said she touched the plate so in her mind she was safe. The umpire signaled safe thus confirming the play in the offense's mind ending any thought otherwise so the player goes to the dugout only to be called out on appeal.

I do not see the baseball method giving any advantage to either player as it still takes time and knowledge to realize the umpire made no call. Equal opportunity.

By signaling safe you prompt a respose that is ultimately incorrect.

 

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Without a player in possession of the ball and no tag being attempted, signalling "safe" is NOT the prescribed mechanic.

But I have to wonder if that had anything to do with the runner heading for the dugout. A runner either thinks she touched the plate or she doesn't. If she really thinks she did, is she going to do anything differently than walk to the dugout, no matter if the umpire signals safe (which she is, as soon as she passes the plate, whether she touched it or not) or if he just stands there?

If a runner really thinks she touched the plate, why would she go back and touch it? Because coaches or teammates are yelling for her to do it? Maybe fans screaming, "She missed the plate!"?

If the runner knows she missed it, or has any doubt she touched it, she should be trying to retouch the plate anyway.

(I'm not dismissing the possibility that maybe the runner really did touch the plate, but the umpire missed it or saw it otherwise. You would hope that he was watching for the touch, made an honest judgment if it was there or not and didn't just "guess" at the call.)

The intent behind the umpire manual having a uniform mechanic to cover these plays is so that they will be called, well, uniformly. And if they are, there is a balance of responsibility for both the offense and the defense.

With no ball and no tag, the mechanic is no signal. The runner is responsible to make sure she touched the base. The defense is responsible to see the miss on their own and appeal accordingly.

If there is a tag attempted, the umpire MUST rule on the validity of the tag (either "safe" or "out") before doing anything else. Then, the responsibility is on the players to know what to do next.

 

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That is interesting all these years I thought when the call is made the play on the call was over not pending, that is why I thought it was a no call as in baseball. Thanks for the heads up, that does make sense 2 part play on a tag. I can see all of us coaches having lag time trying to think out those plays when they pop up now, miss tag, miss plate, play not over.

Just goes to show never stop playing, step on the plate twice if needed by offense and defense.

 

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I did not know there was a difference in this call between baseball and softball. I just learned something new. Thanks

I learned something new as well, however it makes no sense to me. I prefer the way baseball handles it.

Len

 

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There are pros and cons to either way- the baseball way or the softball way.

You say you prefer the baseball way. But what about this:

Close play at the plate, catcher misses the tag and runner misses the plate. Since the standard on all other tag plays is that it must be signaled as either "safe" or "out", if you make the single exception on this play to "do nothing" (give no signal) it really can tip off the defense that the base was missed. Even if they didn't see the missed base, if the umpire "does nothing" you can almost always expect an appeal to follow.

You might as well just have the umpire announce out loud, "He missed the base"!

Of course, it can also tip off the runner that the base was missed so he needs to try and touch it. By rule, if he doesn't touch it, then walks off the field and the defense doesn't appeal it, he's still safe and the run still counts.

To me, that tips the scale of "fairness" just a little bit more in the defense's favor. It can alert them to an appeal, and an out, that they may not have otherwise been aware of on their own.

It could also be argued that giving a "safe" signal might lead a runner to assume that she is now and forever "safe", no matter what happens next. But if the players understand the rules, they should know that isn't always the case.

Since I work both sports, I've had plenty of chances to see teams get confused on this play, no matter what the umpire did or didn't signal! The bottom line is that no matter what the umpire does, the ultimate responsibility to know if a runner touches a base or not should lie with the players playing the game.

I think that is why I prefer the softball mechanic for handling this. Since "safe" or "out" is signalled on every other tag play, an umpire giving a "safe" signal here is more of a normal expectation. It shouldn't tip off either the offense or the defense that the base was missed. It leaves the final responsibility of retouching the base or making the appeal up to the players.

 

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......the ultimate responsibility to know if a runner touches a base or not should lie with the players playing the game.

....and this is exactly why I prefer the baseball way of the no-call as opposed to a potentially incorrect call. An initial, potentially incorrect call can also confuse the situation.

It's just a preference...nothing more.

Len

 

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....and this is exactly why I prefer the baseball way of the no-call as opposed to a potentially incorrect call. An initial, potentially incorrect call can also confuse the situation.

It's just a preference...nothing more.

Len

All umpire mechanics are predicated on the assumption that the correct is going to be made.

If the umpires are making the incorrect call, it can screw up even the best-intentioned mechanic.

(And I would never deny anyone their right to personally prefer one or the other! )