Pitching and Pitchers Discussion How many pitches?

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It is probably not a good idea to throw a pitch in a game until it is fully mastered. Whats the sense in that?. It will only create stress. If a kid can throw a good curve 8-9 times out of ten in practice, then let her throw it in the games. Same with any pitch. Kids can work on other pitches while having mastered the fast ball. As the new pitches become game worthy, let `em rip in games, not before.

 

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Punchout: Thrown well inside and broke in, some went up and left, some went down and left. That is the type of curve that works. Hillhouse and Gillis are not fans , because most kids throw a curve that doesn't move up or down. They have baseball dads that think baseball curve. Ffpitchddad that comment on the curve came from two very well known pitching coaches, not dads! I teach hitting and I can also tell you want we do with a curve that doesn't change plains or a screw ball. If you read any pitching site they suggest the screw is thrown less than 10% of the time. http://www.pitchsoftball.com/WhatPitchestoDevelopNext.html Read the section on the Curve and Screw. This makes my point. Plus the original question on here was not elite pitchers , it was high school pitchers? So my comments were about high school pitchers. Not college or elite travel ball pitchers. Read the orginal ?.

 

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Dad that no longer has the privilege of coaching daughter as she has moved on to college ball but.. we all want to win ballgames but the best thing for a pitcher is to throw pitches in game or pressure situations. I disagree that a pitch needs to be "mastered" before using in a game. Obviously, a pitch that is being learned should not be called in a game. Pitches that are not among their "favorite" should be at least attempted to some degree in games.

How else will pitchers learn how to miss their spots in unhittable areas. Once pitching coach gave the nod on a pitch, they wanted my daughter to use it in a game. Of course pitchers will hang a few (the human factor), but they should learn how to miss well when using their marginal pitches. Makes it a waste pitch but in the right situation they are working toward perfecting all pitches.

 

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Punchout: Thrown well inside and broke in, some went up and left, some went down and left. That is the type of curve that works. Hillhouse and Gillis are not fans , because most kids throw a curve that doesn't move up or down. They have baseball dads that think baseball curve. Ffpitchddad that comment on the curve came from two very well known pitching coaches, not dads! I teach hitting and I can also tell you want we do with a curve that doesn't change plains or a screw ball. If you read any pitching site they suggest the screw is thrown less than 10% of the time. http://www.pitchsoftball.com/WhatPitchestoDevelopNext.html Read the section on the Curve and Screw. This makes my point.

SB you are intitled to your opinion about the curve and for some girls it works for some it don't. It happens to work well for my daughter. I really don't care what hillhouse thinks about it, as the best in the world (that was mentioned by punchout) throw a curve.

 

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A few things people don't seem to understand.

Why do we keep comparing these 12-16 yr old girls to the best in the world.

the WOMEN that we keep bringing up are 6' 4" with hands that wrap around the $%^& ball, sure her sh!t moves.

They are who they are for a reason, they are special.

And most kids dont get enough true spin in the right direction to make the pitch work like hall of fame pitchers.

 

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A few things people don't seem to understand.

Why do we keep comparing these 12-16 yr old girls to the best in the world.

the WOMEN that we keep bringing up are 6' 4" with hands that wrap around the $%^& ball, sure her sh!t moves.

They are who they are for a reason, they are special.

And most kids dont get enough true spin in the right direction to make the pitch work like hall of fame pitchers.

Coach,

To answer your question bluntly,...... BECAUSE YOUR DD and several others in OHIO, HAVE THAT POTENTIAL.... The only question is, will it be realized.

I've seen your DD many times as my DD competed against her via Middle School(Nagel) and Travel (Doom95 ). Within minutes I had to stop our MS Team in dugout and advise them of the maturity of your DD's game, as she had 3,4,5 speeds she was throwing and that was without the change-up. Unfortunately, we only had two travel kids on the MS team, so don't think it helped them much, but at least my dd, figured it out after striking out looking silly the first time ..... ^_^!

 

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"Are JV pitcher loves the drop and has a wicked backhand change, most of her strikout came that way. She only throws around 55 to 58 so its not fair to be calling riseballs she would get killed, thats not saying she dosen't work on it. "

Bluelight, my DD throws only 55 - 57 mph. She is a riseball pitcher. She has good movement at that speed because she has very good spin due to good technique. She has had a lot of success being a riseball pitcher at that speed. The problem most pitchers will have is the transition from one pitch to the next especially if they throw only a few pitches continuously. With the rise you can throw it in different areas of the zone and get different results. If the rise can break 3 to 4 inches and your drop can break at least 3 to 4 that is up to 8 inches of verticle movement anywhere in the zone.

 

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Thanks coach McQueen. I think some on here jumped in without reading the first post!. It was about high school pitchers, not elite pitchers! Fpitchdad, I know your dd has a good curve ball, I think I was watching her pitch talking to Pat, if it's Amber. My comments are about high school kids in general.

 

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Trakin daball, She works on it, she just dosen't get the movement, its more like a fastball up in the zone. One of these days it will come around.

 

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Dad that no longer has the privilege of coaching daughter as she has moved on to college ball but.. we all want to win ballgames but the best thing for a pitcher is to throw pitches in game or pressure situations. I disagree that a pitch needs to be "mastered" before using in a game. Obviously, a pitch that is being learned should not be called in a game. Pitches that are not among their "favorite" should be at least attempted to some degree in games.

How else will pitchers learn how to miss their spots in unhittable areas. Once pitching coach gave the nod on a pitch, they wanted my daughter to use it in a game. Of course pitchers will hang a few (the human factor), but they should learn how to miss well when using their marginal pitches. Makes it a waste pitch but in the right situation they are working toward perfecting all pitches.

If your pitching coach is suggesting a kid throw a pitch in a game before being able to throw it effectively, well, I don`t know what to tell you. That makes no sense at all.I too had a pitcher who went on to pitch in college. I can tell you this, she would have never thrown a pitch until it was game ready. You really want the opposing team to think she has ANY weaknesses? Wild pitches sure give that impression. You want to face live hitting with a new pitch, throw it in a batting practice session. Ive seen kids "try" new pitches against weak teams, and it was nothing less than embarrassing. Maybe our definition of mastered or game ready are different. If a pitch is being learned, then I agree it should not be thrown, but if it actually works, then throw it in a game.
More about curve.
http://www.softballexcellence.com/Page.bok?template=in_art_0086

Here is proof that Cat likes to throw a curve, lots of curves. She also throws some rises and some drops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBLvQBnawew&feature=related

 

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Bluelight: your comments are right on the mark. Imagine if your JV Pitcher hadn't been exposed to that drop until she mastered some other pitch. I am certain she has tried them all but finds the drop works for her. Thank god some coach had the nerve to let her try it in a game and allowed her to develop it. I am talking about high school pitchers here. They must be allowed to throw their newer/weaker pitches in order to find their way.

It is possible to throw their best pitch exactly where they want it and a pace and with a break that will make daddy proud only to watch it slammed over the fence. It is possible to throw the same pitch and the batter misses by a foot. Just because you can hit your spots or make a break with one pitch doesn't mean you win all the battles.

I look for occasions to allow these high school level pitchers to throw their newer/weaker pitches in game situations and then force them to throw them. (these girls tend not to want to do something unless it is perfect; hence they never get it game ready) I know what they have been working on and we will call that pitch. That is the only way that these players can discover their true out-pitch might be and which pitches that will take them to the next level.

I am not talking about the final game of the State Championship tied up in the bottom of the 7th. I am talking about a game in April or the 4th game on a Saturday. I do agree that a fine high school pitcher needs at least 3 pitches to be successful but I have yet to meet one that ONLY has 3 pitches and has never worked with more. Heck there is a 137 ways to throw the change up; okay 138.

If you as a coach are waiting for a Cat to spring up fully developed on your team and propel you to softball heaven. It will be avery long wait. U of A gets one or two every 4 years the rest of us are not so lucky.

 

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I have heard a couple of things that come to mind in this topic. I can't remember who I heard this from but the quote was, "When are you going to attack a hitter with your 5th best pitch?"

The other one came from Michelle Smith. A coach asked her at a clinic when he should teach his pitcher the screwball. Her response was, "When she is ready to be done with her career."

Teaching 8 pitches and things like some do are ridiculous. Fastball, Change, and either a drop, curve, or rise is sufficient. But as some have said it is important to realize that different kids will be able to do different things as far as the movement pitches go, but if you want to be successful figure out which of the movement pitches are your best and focus on that.

 

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Bluelight: your comments are right on the mark. Imagine if your JV Pitcher hadn't been exposed to that drop until she mastered some other pitch. I am certain she has tried them all but finds the drop works for her. Thank god some coach had the nerve to let her try it in a game and allowed her to develop it. I am talking about high school pitchers here. They must be allowed to throw their newer/weaker pitches in order to find their way.

It is possible to throw their best pitch exactly where they want it and a pace and with a break that will make daddy proud only to watch it slammed over the fence. It is possible to throw the same pitch and the batter misses by a foot. Just because you can hit your spots or make a break with one pitch doesn't mean you win all the battles.

I look for occasions to allow these high school level pitchers to throw their newer/weaker pitches in game situations and then force them to throw them. (these girls tend not to want to do something unless it is perfect; hence they never get it game ready) I know what they have been working on and we will call that pitch. That is the only way that these players can discover their true out-pitch might be and which pitches that will take them to the next level.

I am not talking about the final game of the State Championship tied up in the bottom of the 7th. I am talking about a game in April or the 4th game on a Saturday. I do agree that a fine high school pitcher needs at least 3 pitches to be successful but I have yet to meet one that ONLY has 3 pitches and has never worked with more. Heck there is a 137 ways to throw the change up; okay 138.

If you as a coach are waiting for a Cat to spring up fully developed on your team and propel you to softball heaven. It will be avery long wait. U of A gets one or two every 4 years the rest of us are not so lucky.

I think it is a good idea to be working on new pitches while throwing the ones you throw well in games. The mentality of really GOOD pitchers is they never want a batter to have an advantage, never. Throwing a pitch in a game, before it can be thrown effectively is contrary to how good pitchers think. Sure, the first time a new pitch is introduced in a game, may, or may not be successful. If it was not successful, then it was not ready to be thrown yet. Pretty simple, really.

 

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fairman, I like the section that starts (It is possible) that goes with knowing the batter, and I have seen it happen.
I don't disagree with what your saying ( and here come the but) but the thing with HS varsity is your there to do one thing and one thing only and that is to win. Anything else and people are breathing down your back, sad but true.
Some daddys DD's don't make varsity teams, but that another topic.

 

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Thanks coach McQueen. I think some on here jumped in without reading the first post!. It was about high school pitchers, not elite pitchers! Fpitchdad, I know your dd has a good curve ball, I think I was watching her pitch talking to Pat, if it's Amber. My comments are about high school kids in general.

Ok, high school pitchers in general.....got it. We must know each other but just not know it on here......Amber is correct, thanks for the comment on her curve, she has worked very hard on it. She has givin up a long ball or two with that curve, but with what that curve has been able to do for her and her team through out last HS season and on her summer team, a couple long balls really don't hurt that much.

 

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There are no absolutes here. There is no doubt that a HS pitcher doesn't need more than 2-3 pitches if she can throw them well and hit her spots. In the meantime, I would encourage pitchers to keep trying to learn new ones, because that new one may turn out to be better than one she already has, or it may come in handy in a particular situation.

 

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As an old baseball player....(I know, I'll get killed for this...) Went to school with two pitchers. One threw heat, great change and curve. Other kid had a 70 mph fastball(kind of like a 45 mph fastball in softball) curve, and change, that all broke about 19 feet coming in. Guess which one went to DIII, and which one went on a full-ride to college? I think way too many people fall in love with the fastball if your DD has good speed, and ignore how to actually PITCH. If you can read a batter, pick a spot and hit that spot, you'll be well ahead with only a fastball and change. Klumpp, Semper and I agree, WAY too many 12 U kids have 14 pitches already, and they all look the same. (Aside-the kid that threw heat lasted three years D1 before career-ending shoulder surgery, last I heard the other is still pitching at 44 in one of those wood bat leagues and making the young bucks look stupid!)
Remember, pitchers pitch, throwers throw.

 

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When some talk about pitches that are mastered, I think many people look only at the end result of where the pitch ended up, not necessarily how the pitch got there. One of the things that gets lost in the shuffle to learn breaking pitches is the fact that the fastball is the foundation that all other pitches are built on. If the mechanics are flawed in the fastball delivery i.e. short arming, chicken winging, crow hopping, etc. you will have inconsistancy, unnecessary wear on the body, and/or potential for injury. These flaws in your fastball will follow into all the other pitches.

An effective change-up looks like a fastball, the arm has to go around at the same speed, the footwork is the same, some even say that it is more effective if the batter sees the ball at release as opposed to the back of the hand, and the ball should have a spin on it as well to fool the batter. Now, spot that inside low and outside low, in and out of the zone, and it will be deadly in HS ball.

Same thing with breaking pitches, for example: if you are stepping way outside the powerline to get your screwball to break, you are tipping your hand to the batter, and possibly setting yourself up for an injury, or an illegal pitch. Granted, there are not a ton of batters in the HS level that will pick up on these little "tells", there are a few that will. We had a girl that pitched for us at 10U that would slap her leg with her glove on fastballs, but not on change-ups, you would be suprised how many girls and teams picked up on that even at 10U.

Fastball and change-up as described, and the addition of a good breaking pitch. Probably all any HS pitcher will ever need.

 

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I agree some may have differing views on what "mastering" a pitch means. I don't believe anyone ever "masters" a pitch by my definition. A pitcher will move on to babies and normal jobs first. I do think that after a pitch has been introduced, practiced, thrown in hitting practice it eventually has to be thrown in a game. In a perfect scenario some pitchers will have equal confidence in 5 or 6 pitches and throw them all to world class abilty...is possible and has been done by the best. Most pitchers will always have pitches they are comfortable throwing but 2 or 3 they are partial to.

This is just my opinion and from my experience with my DD, I called all pitches that could be considered taught and learned. She is not a D1 pitcher, but a good pitcher none the less. A couple pitches used more sparingly but used. These pitches improved as she used them in game situations. Point to my earlier post related to being a "pitcher"...Her ability allowed her to use those marginal pitches and Usually locate them so as not to give the hitter a good pitch to hit. That isn't the same as a wild pitch. An example would be her last pitch to learn...the rise ball. She was very good at getting the pitch way up around head height until she learned to spot it better. I don't ever remember her missing around the belt. Is that the same as a waste pitch...sure, but every time she threw that pitch she was getting better with it.

Only two pitches that are "mastered"...just watch a good hitter figure out she is only using 2 pitches...in my mind, now the hitter has the advantage.

 

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DD's pitching coach once said, "You must try for perfection. Once, you have thrown a perfect game, you must always strive to do it again." I think that one of the hardest things for a pitcher to do is to realize that they will never be perfect. 50% mental, 50% physical. And....there is a lot of physical.