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when the catcher is making a throw down to 2nd base on a steal which kind of tag is better?a swoop tag were you quickly do it?
or a tag were you hold it on the baserunner?
I have a question on tagging on a throw down to 2nd on a stolen base.
when the catcher is making a throw down to 2nd base on a steal which kind of tag is better?a swoop tag were you quickly do it?
or a tag were you hold it on the baserunner?
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As an umpire I will say appearances are everything. The swipe "looks" better. But in the end it shouldnt matter, ball beats runner to base, tag(either way)= OUT!
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I have an issue with your statement, especially you being an umpire! Just because the ball beats the runner does not mean she is out! You need to see where the tag is applied, or if the tag is applied. As an umpire you cannot and should not just assume an out because the ball got there first. See this way too much as a high school coach and travel ball coach. And umpires wonder why coaches get on them?
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It depends on if there are any other base runners on or how close the play is. If that is the only runner, catch the ball, block the bag, and hold the tag if it is close. If there are other runners on, a quick sweep tag is best so you can quickly get in the throwing position to make the next play.
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Ball beats runner to bag, place glove in front of bag and then adjust to actions of runner. If they go high, you go high, if they hook slide away from you follow them with your glove first around the bag.
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I've seen ball beat the runner and second base person lays down the tag on the front corner ... and the girl slides to the back corner and gets the foot in.
Believe you me, I have been yelled out because the ball beat the runner and it looked like an easy out... and she was safe and I called her safe.
Been reamed and I was standing only a foot away watching the play unfold.
One time at a play at the plate the catcher was blocking the plate as the ball beat the runner and the girl slid in and the catcher fell on top of her and wasn't getting up off her to show me the ball.
I had to take the catcher by the strap on her back and physically..lightly.. roll her over to see if she still had the ball. I was waiting for the catcher to do her job and get up and show me she had possession. She didn't.
When I rolled her over.. she had the ball and it was not trapped. I called the runner out.
But, heard an earfull about rolling the catcher over from the coach AND not calling the girl out earlier as the other runner went around second in the meantime and went to third.. as it was only the second out at home plate.
Screamed and yelled at by the defensive coach. I told the coach he should "teach" the catcher to do her job and show the umpire the ball in plays like this... and then preceeded to throw the coach out for running out onto the field screaming at me while the ball was still in play...
Believe you me, I have been yelled out because the ball beat the runner and it looked like an easy out... and she was safe and I called her safe.
Been reamed and I was standing only a foot away watching the play unfold.
One time at a play at the plate the catcher was blocking the plate as the ball beat the runner and the girl slid in and the catcher fell on top of her and wasn't getting up off her to show me the ball.
I had to take the catcher by the strap on her back and physically..lightly.. roll her over to see if she still had the ball. I was waiting for the catcher to do her job and get up and show me she had possession. She didn't.
When I rolled her over.. she had the ball and it was not trapped. I called the runner out.
But, heard an earfull about rolling the catcher over from the coach AND not calling the girl out earlier as the other runner went around second in the meantime and went to third.. as it was only the second out at home plate.
Screamed and yelled at by the defensive coach. I told the coach he should "teach" the catcher to do her job and show the umpire the ball in plays like this... and then preceeded to throw the coach out for running out onto the field screaming at me while the ball was still in play...
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I've seen ball beat the runner and second base person lays down the tag on the front corner ... and the girl slides to the back corner and gets the foot in.
Believe you me, I have been yelled out because the ball beat the runner and it looked like an easy out... and she was safe and I called her safe.
Been reamed and I was standing only a foot away watching the play unfold.
One time at a play at the plate the catcher was blocking the plate as the ball beat the runner and the girl slid in and the catcher fell on top of her and wasn't getting up off her to show me the ball.
I had to take the catcher by the strap on her back and physically..lightly.. roll her over to see if she still had the ball. I was waiting for the catcher to do her job and get up and show me she had possession. She didn't.
When I rolled her over.. she had the ball and it was not trapped. I called the runner out.
But, heard an earfull about rolling the catcher over from the coach AND not calling the girl out earlier as the other runner went around second in the meantime and went to third.. as it was only the second out at home plate.
Screamed and yelled at by the defensive coach. I told the coach he should "teach" the catcher to do her job and show the umpire the ball in plays like this... and then preceeded to throw the coach out for running out onto the field screaming at me while the ball was still in play...
Sounds like a fine day at the ballpark.
IMO, you made the right call...on all counts.
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Another day at the park. I've seen these sweeping tags by girls that
a) never touch the runner
or
b) the " sweeping" motion threw the ball out into center field.
I've seen replays on TV in pro baseball games where the umpire called the runner out and the tag was a sweep and up... never touching the runner. Too many of these girls in the older age groups "KNOW" how to slide. I seen a girl one time go in on her belly with her left hand out. Just before she got to the bag.. she pulled the left hand back and reached out with her right hand a grabbed the bag.
First judgement, I thought she was going to be out by a mile. That's the judgement people see while sitting behind a chain linked fence 90 ft away...LOL.. They don't see it from two feet away.
After I called her safe... my next thought was... " What coached took the time and showed her that move. Or was it her Dad/Mom that taught her that" ...LOL
I love slides like that and can take the yelling to make sure the DD got was she desreved. In this case .. a safe call and telling her what a great slide that was.
a) never touch the runner
or
b) the " sweeping" motion threw the ball out into center field.
I've seen replays on TV in pro baseball games where the umpire called the runner out and the tag was a sweep and up... never touching the runner. Too many of these girls in the older age groups "KNOW" how to slide. I seen a girl one time go in on her belly with her left hand out. Just before she got to the bag.. she pulled the left hand back and reached out with her right hand a grabbed the bag.
First judgement, I thought she was going to be out by a mile. That's the judgement people see while sitting behind a chain linked fence 90 ft away...LOL.. They don't see it from two feet away.
After I called her safe... my next thought was... " What coached took the time and showed her that move. Or was it her Dad/Mom that taught her that" ...LOL
I love slides like that and can take the yelling to make sure the DD got was she desreved. In this case .. a safe call and telling her what a great slide that was.
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Personally, I would NEVER touch a player, especially as a means to aid the player in completing a play that she is responsible for making herself. But that's just me...
One of the biggest arguments I had last season was on one of those "ball beats the runner, fielder misses the tag" type plays. I was the base umpire. A runner was advancing to third, the throw beat her by a mile, the fielder put her glove down in front of the base and was waiting, the runner was a dead duck, she slid in...and the glove/ball never touched her. She had slid right around and past the tag and was never touched. I called her safe.
The defensive coach just about lost it. He came out to me yelling that, "The ball beat the runner!". Yep, it sure did coach. But a tag was never applied.
His next argument was that "from his angle" it looked like the runner was out. From "his angle", in the first base dugout at least 100 feet from the play, I suppose it did. My angle was about six feet away from the play, looking straight at the runners foot, the glove and the base.
So he goes into the, "Can you ask your partner for help?", mode. Sorry, no. The plate umpire is 60 feet away and his view would have been blocked by the fielder. This is a judgment call and one that I was in perfect position to see. There's nothing to "ask my partner" about- unless you're just fishing for a second opinion because you didn't like the call.
Had I been the plate umpire, in a one umpire game, it would have been impossible to see the miss and probably would have looked like a good tag. As a practical matter, when working solo and it's impossible to get close to a play, "ball beats runner" can be a valid means to make your call, since it is the only thing you're going to be able to see.
There are long-running debates among umpires about these kinds of plays. Automatically calling the out when "the ball beats the runner" is known as making the "expected call". An "expected call" is one that probably should have been an out and probably looks like an out to everyone else viewing the play. It does have some validity in a one umpire game- imagine this same kind of play on a steal of second, where the plate umpire is going to be 80+ feet away from the play, and the near-miss would be impossible to see.
For me, if you are in position to see it and have a clear view of it, a missed tag is just that- the runner is safe. You can almost expect some grief from the defensive coach. But if the tag was clearly missed and you call the out, you should expect an equal amount of grief from the offensive side! Just call what you see- it's either a valid tag or not and the runner is either out or safe, just like any other play.
One of the biggest arguments I had last season was on one of those "ball beats the runner, fielder misses the tag" type plays. I was the base umpire. A runner was advancing to third, the throw beat her by a mile, the fielder put her glove down in front of the base and was waiting, the runner was a dead duck, she slid in...and the glove/ball never touched her. She had slid right around and past the tag and was never touched. I called her safe.
The defensive coach just about lost it. He came out to me yelling that, "The ball beat the runner!". Yep, it sure did coach. But a tag was never applied.
His next argument was that "from his angle" it looked like the runner was out. From "his angle", in the first base dugout at least 100 feet from the play, I suppose it did. My angle was about six feet away from the play, looking straight at the runners foot, the glove and the base.
So he goes into the, "Can you ask your partner for help?", mode. Sorry, no. The plate umpire is 60 feet away and his view would have been blocked by the fielder. This is a judgment call and one that I was in perfect position to see. There's nothing to "ask my partner" about- unless you're just fishing for a second opinion because you didn't like the call.
Had I been the plate umpire, in a one umpire game, it would have been impossible to see the miss and probably would have looked like a good tag. As a practical matter, when working solo and it's impossible to get close to a play, "ball beats runner" can be a valid means to make your call, since it is the only thing you're going to be able to see.
There are long-running debates among umpires about these kinds of plays. Automatically calling the out when "the ball beats the runner" is known as making the "expected call". An "expected call" is one that probably should have been an out and probably looks like an out to everyone else viewing the play. It does have some validity in a one umpire game- imagine this same kind of play on a steal of second, where the plate umpire is going to be 80+ feet away from the play, and the near-miss would be impossible to see.
For me, if you are in position to see it and have a clear view of it, a missed tag is just that- the runner is safe. You can almost expect some grief from the defensive coach. But if the tag was clearly missed and you call the out, you should expect an equal amount of grief from the offensive side! Just call what you see- it's either a valid tag or not and the runner is either out or safe, just like any other play.
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Teaching sliding is an art that seem to be lost.
If I was a coach, I'd tell my parents to always bring and old set of clothing for the DD for if we was scheduled to have practice and it started raining.. when the rain quit.. as a team we would do as much as possible in a grass area and the last 1 hr of practice is sliding since we got the opportunity to do so
It's a lost art.. as well as coaches using their hands at third to guide the runner inside or outside. Don't see it very often in games anymore coaching doing their part with the hand movement.
Coach should be squatted..hands low.. and the runner is looking at the base and can see the coaches hands and his voice.
If I was a coach, I'd tell my parents to always bring and old set of clothing for the DD for if we was scheduled to have practice and it started raining.. when the rain quit.. as a team we would do as much as possible in a grass area and the last 1 hr of practice is sliding since we got the opportunity to do so
It's a lost art.. as well as coaches using their hands at third to guide the runner inside or outside. Don't see it very often in games anymore coaching doing their part with the hand movement.
Coach should be squatted..hands low.. and the runner is looking at the base and can see the coaches hands and his voice.
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I'm all for the expected call in these when your not sure. I think in a one umpire system the burden of proof would have to be that way. I.e. unless you absolutely saw her miss the tag, you have to assume she made the tag, because there is no way from a long ways away that going the other direction (i.e. assuming she missed the tag unless 100% sure she made the tag) would result in getting many outs there would always be some doubt. Unfortunatley it only takes a couple of "I didn't see the tags" from umpires to shift kids into making tags that are probably harder than necessary. I had a coach tell my daughter after a tag she made that umpire missed that next time she should make sure the girl falls down so the umpire can see it. That isn't what the game needs, but would be a logical reaction if umpires in general put too much burden on seeing a tag from a long way away.
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One umpire system is absolutely crazy.
That's greed by a TD.
That's greed by a TD.
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And you wonder why coaches, parents and kids get upset with LAZY umpires. Get out from behind the plate and make a call. Don't assume that the tag was applied just because the ball beat the runner there. I hope you never do one of my DD's games.
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Strohboro: There are a lot of umpires that are like that. Instead of taking the "grief"
of calling the girls safe and the "grief" you get from the defensive coach and parents ( as you know the DD is going to tell the coach," I tagged her"..LOL )... a lot of umpires will call the "obvious looking" out.
I found one in my umpire group that is like that last year. Funny thing was, three other umpires pointed it out to me and he no longer work with the other good umpires I got.
Actually, I have retired from umpiring any tournaments anywhere.. unless I am needed in a pinch. I just like traveling around the state and doing some friendlies and meeting new OFC people. I'm at Teays Valley HS in Ashville this Sunday having fun. Double header and meeting Coach Nick of the Viking Elite 10u team. Now, I just have to find where Ashville is !!!! Just kidding, I know.
Looking for double headers in the Toledo area now!!!!
of calling the girls safe and the "grief" you get from the defensive coach and parents ( as you know the DD is going to tell the coach," I tagged her"..LOL )... a lot of umpires will call the "obvious looking" out.
I found one in my umpire group that is like that last year. Funny thing was, three other umpires pointed it out to me and he no longer work with the other good umpires I got.
Actually, I have retired from umpiring any tournaments anywhere.. unless I am needed in a pinch. I just like traveling around the state and doing some friendlies and meeting new OFC people. I'm at Teays Valley HS in Ashville this Sunday having fun. Double header and meeting Coach Nick of the Viking Elite 10u team.
Now, I just have to find where Ashville is !!!! Just kidding, I know.Looking for double headers in the Toledo area now!!!!
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Behind the plate... one umpire..... ball beats runner.. unless you can say from 84 ft plus she was safe... then she is out.
"Please contact TD for any further complaints based on one umpire system".
"Please contact TD for any further complaints based on one umpire system".
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How far exactly would you expect an umpire to get on a straight steal with a pitch being thrown?
The pitch is the priority and you can't bail out and start heading away from the plate until it gets to the catcher if you want to make any realistic sort of "ball/strike" call.
By then, the runner has a HUGE head start. Any umpire, not matter how much he hustles or how fast he is, is going to be lucky to get a couple or three steps just to clear the batter and have some reasonable look at the play.
And yet...when working "solo" I have had coaches complain that I didn't get far enough from behind the plate on this sort of play. This is an idiotic complaint.
But I do agree that plate umpires should make every effort to get out from behind the plate on (almost) every play (obviously, not with a runner advancing to home, for example).
For any routine batted ball, there's no reason not to be out in the infield making calls at bases. With no other runners on, you should be out at least as far as the pitching plate on plays at first, or easily be able to trail a runner into second or third on extra-base hits.
One of my biggest pet peeves is an umpire that just stays planted behind the plate, like his feet are in concrete, the whole game. You need to get out there...but on some plays you just can't.
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IN defense of Donny he says ball beats runner "tag" is applied = out. His statement seems fair and not lazy if you all would read exactly what he said......hmmm....speakin of "lazy";&. Just kiddin all thought I would chime in and we can split hairs on that comment all day.
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Agree best advise for the post by far.
