Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Illegal pitch

[spirit2]

Why does it seem that a pitcher can be leaping illegally most every pitch but the umpires only call it once per game?

 

[Louuuuu]

Start paying umpires "hourly" instead of "per game", and watch that policy change.

 

[lewam3]

Well, batters erase the box and crowd the plate every single game, I never see that called. Runner leave early too... As in any sport, it's all about gaining an edge, although I doubt leaping really helps a pitcher.

 

[Louuuuu]

Well, batters erase the box and crowd the plate every single game, I never see that called. Runner leave early too... As in any sport, it's all about gaining an edge,...

That's true, too.

If umpires called everything that could be called, then people would be complaining that Blue is choking the teams - and won't let the players play. (In which case, I say "What have all the 'coaches' been teaching these girls since t-ball"? If the players were taught the proper way to play the game, instead of ways to get "the edge", then we wouldn't be having this conversation.)

 

[snoman76]

Start paying umpires "hourly" instead of "per game", and watch that policy change.

So if we pay them hourly, what do you think a fair wage is?
If you break it down they are making roughly $20 an hour as it is. Is that not enough?

How hard is it to follow the rules? If it's an illegal pitch then it should be called every time. I was actually happy to have 2 illegal pitches called during my games last weekend. One on each side. I'm tired of all this "weeeelllll, it's pool play so we'll let it go" or " weeeeelllll, technically that's the rule but they're 13 year old girls so we'll let it go"

 

[snoman76]

Well, batters erase the box and crowd the plate every single game, I never see that called. Runner leave early too... As in any sport, it's all about gaining an edge, although I doubt leaping really helps a pitcher.

In my opinion, "leaping" gets the pitcher that much closer to the plate on delivery so that results in less reaction time for the hitter thus giving a slight advantage to the pitcher. I'm not a pitching guy, this is just how my guess on why this rule is what it is

 

[jg1235]

The problem with a lot of coaches they don't understand that when there is a miniature grand canyon in front of the pitchers plate that the pitcher needs to only maintain a level plain. I have seen so many coaches complain that the pitcher did't maintain contact in these type of situations. Unless you are playing on artificial turf by the end of the weekend of any tournament there are usually craters around the pitchers plate. Is this fair to the pitcher? NO

 

[Louuuuu]

So if we pay them hourly, what do you think a fair wage is?
If you break it down they are making roughly $20 an hour as it is. Is that not enough?

Take it easy Snoman. I'm not saying I agree with the statement. I'm just saying that is the mind-set of a lot of umpires.

Personally, I think that if you're Umping for the money, then you're not going to call the game correctly.

 

[wow]

The issue is Suzy goes to lessons 3X per week and mom and dad spend a lot of money. When they are younger its about developing confidence. Everyone wants a fair game but really what is going to happen if they don't correct the issue? Suzy gets mad and starts crying and cant throw a strike. Then the parents start yelling at blue because Suzy's mind is not right and cant finish the game.

Illegal pitches for crow hoping are rarely called. You see more for not presenting the ball or not starting with two feet on the rubber. I thinks its "safer" to call those then the illegal pitch for "jumping".

As far as what blue makes? Usually not enough to babysit the parents!

 

[SonicMojo]

. . . although I doubt leaping really helps a pitcher.

Of course it does. That's why it's illegal.

 

[El Spizo]

The issue is Suzy goes to lessons 3X per week and mom and dad spend a lot of money. When they are younger its about developing confidence. Everyone wants a fair game but really what is going to happen if they don't correct the issue? Suzy gets mad and starts crying and cant throw a strike. Then the parents start yelling at blue because Suzy's mind is not right and cant finish the game.

Illegal pitches for crow hoping are rarely called. You see more for not presenting the ball or not starting with two feet on the rubber. I thinks its "safer" to call those then the illegal pitch for "jumping".

As far as what blue makes? Usually not enough to babysit the parents!

here's my take and it's not just in pitching (which I have yet to really deal with that apparently wonderful world of fun as my kid is 8u), the problem is umpiring as a whole isn't being taken seriously.

Let me get one thing straight on my point of view. The Ump that enforces the rule isn't the jerk, it's the ump that doesn't.

I think I have a fresh perspective as the father of a first year 8u softball player. I say that because frankly I've heard "well, they are 8 and I done want to throw the rulebook at them" and honestly, while most parents/coaches were thinking "how compassionate" I thought "Thanks for teaching my kid the game wrong".

Thats where it it falls down to, these girls are always learning and you are always teaching. Even in the older levels. 8u-10u they are learning the rules, 12u up they are learning what rules they can get away with breaking... Until that "jerk" ump makes the call and suddenly he's the bad guy... Right?

 

[CoachB25]

I saw a girl pitch illegally in two regional games this week. At one point one of the opposing coaches went to the umpire and asked him if he had an (anatomical parts) at all. I'm betting that this young lady did not throw 5 legal pitches in those two games and won both. Same umpires. Here is the thing, no one is doing her a favor by allowing her to continue throwing that way. She flew so many miles this weekend on her leaps that she garnered frequent flyer miles. Heck, she was beyond the circle on some of her throws.

 

[BretMan2]

Heck, she was beyond the circle on some of her throws.

If this is true...sign her up for the Olympics! The women's world record for the standing broad jump 8'1" and the pitching circle is an 8' radius.

Tournament today, I worked three games and called a half dozen illegal pitches, four leaps and two hand separation violations. The amazing part was that once a pitcher was called for an IP, she magically adjusted and began pitching legally.

Not so amazing- rather predictable, in fact- coaches in my face complaining that "she's never been called for that before", and accusing me of "not calling it the same way for both teams", along with the ever popular shouts from the fans to "let the girls play"...which all probably ties in with why some umpires are reluctant to call these. Invariably, calling an IP almost always leads to a conflict with a coach. I think that some just don't want to deal with the hassle.

 

[CARDS]

Over the years I would say I have seen more problems with "field preparation" than the ladies especially at the older ages and at high profile events...

At the mega tournaments where they use the same fields for 10U-23U I would say 10% of the games are played with incorrect field dimensions.

Cat Osterman could leap and drag from 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 feet and you're not going to get much better than her.
So, if your 14/16/18U is exiting the circle I would say the pitchers plate or the circle is out of spec. In the events we played (even high profile showcase events and ASA Metros) we seemed to have at least one game where pitching distances, circle or bases were off.

I think this happens so much umpires (especially on those long hot days) just say lets let both teams play until someone points it out then we will wait on grounds crews to come and fix it. I also seen a lot of times with the 4/5" deep 10"long rut in front of the pitching plates and some umpires calling a replant. (Most would let the lack of toe touch slide)

We were at an event in Columbus Ohio back in 2012 where both pitchers were getting called for going outside the lane in the first inning. Sure enough we checked and the pitching rubber was off almost 6" from the plate.
Your older 16 and up ladies knows when it doesn't feel right most of the time they are correct...

 

[daboss]

A little off the original topic but I have a few opinions to share. The original rule, as I understand, dealt with the infamous "crow hop" as it was named. As time went on it became apparent more description was needed as people argued over the exact movement to constitute a crow hop. That's when they must have decided to add the "leap and replant" along with other wording to describe an illegal pitch due to the footwork of a pitch. There are still many other factors such as the ball to glove part of the rule that can constitute an illegal pitch.

This is what helps me deal with and understand the reasons why pitchers do what they do. In most cases, it is my opinion they are not doing it purposely to gain an advantage. It simply means they "forgot" what they had been taught. An umpire calls an illegal pitch and without complaining she throws it correctly the next pitch. That's because the umpire's call reminded them---------not because they got caught and corrected. There are so many things that go into purposely throwing a legal pitch that the kids simply forget a step or 2. We work on those very things at every lesson here. They are trying to learn a new pitch and simply forget. No different from trying to deliver that pitch in a game and they forget.

The crow hop and leap and replant scenarios deal with a host of issues. The worst being an instructor not doing their job. You don't continue to take the familiy's money and teach a kid how to pitch with illegal footwork. It's simply unethical. For most kids they go thru periods of adjustment, especially when trying to step up their pitching game to a higher level. There arm spin gets out of synchronization with the lower body. This promotes the other things to happen. If instructors would correct this instead of ignoring this timing issue, the kids would be aware and alert to fix it. Teaching methods really come into play but it takes a trained instructor to see the signs and correct a bad habit from becoming a chronic problem. There's more to this pitching thing than spinning your arm and stepping forward.

Again, I still don't believe most do the things on purpose. It's a matter of exceptions to the rule or girls simply being taught wrong and unaware.

 

[CoachB25]

"Beyond the circle" meaning a part of her foot was beyond the circle. I understand how my statement was misleading and apologize. I had to redo that area because the umpires stopped the game. So, I'm 100% positive of where she was landing. The standing broad jump and pitching are no similar at all and, imo, a poor comparison. The lead foot landing area of a pitcher, the push off with one foot in front and one behind the rubber, the sideways orientation of the pitcher's body and the location of the buttocks when that lead foot lands brings the validity of your comparison into question.

 

[daboss]

On the issue of leaping completely outside of the circle, I believe the rule mentions that the foot or feet need to be completely outside the chalk to be considered an illegal pitch. I have worked with girls that have very long strides forward when throwing a fastball. I don't believe any can throw a strike if striding so far forward that they would be called for an illegal pitch for coming completely out of the circle. Maybe there are girls that can. I really don't know. I believe if they stride that far on every pitch they are probably a 1 dimensional pitcher. Time her up and tee off!

Everyone is fascinated with a girl throwing smoke. Even coaches get fixated on the fastball and forget the concept of calling pitches in a game is to give your team the utmost advantage over the current batter. You may get away with the fastball thru 12u but by high school age your pitchers need to be versed in other pitches if they want to be anywhere beyond sectionals in the playoffs. Her spotting of her fastball better be Rembrandt quality because your better teams can hit any fastball today. Why do you think your team sails by the first few times thru the batting order, then gets drilled about the 4th or 5th inning? They timed her up people!!! come on coaches get smart. Change that pitcher out and give them another look or call some pitches they haven't seen! If they timed up the fastball, continuing to call it isn't going to do anything but push your pitcher out of her comfort zone. She sees the need for more and begins overthrowing. This creates mechanical problems that wear her out and put her physically at risk for injury.

Really good pitchers like Cat or Jennie have BALANCE people! They don't overthrow. Monica may appear to be out of control but you are wrong. It's simply her style to wind up that way. Watch her full arm circle as she is coming forward beginning at the thigh. It's the same most every time and mirrors Cat and Jennie's form. They all display balance in all pitches but a screwball. Why is it different? Because the only way to properly throw a screwball is to almost fall down. The footwork is different in the stride that promotes an unbalanced movement.

My point is; to be successful pitching you need to be 3 dimensional. That takes balance. Overstriding will only leave your girl vulnerable. Not only in her pitch delivery but in her ability to defend herself. Some have commented on the use of masks and other safety devices in other posts. No post has ever mentioned teaching a girl to be prepared and ready to defend herself. Good pitchers have balance and poise. They seldom are in jeopardy.

 

[DanMaz]

on the issue of leaping completely outside of the circle, i believe the rule mentions that the foot or feet need to be completely outside the chalk to be considered an illegal pitch. I have worked with girls that have very long strides forward when throwing a fastball. I don't believe any can throw a strike if striding so far forward that they would be called for an illegal pitch for coming completely out of the circle. Maybe there are girls that can. I really don't know. I believe if they stride that far on every pitch they are probably a 1 dimensional pitcher. Time her up and tee off!

Everyone is fascinated with a girl throwing smoke. Even coaches get fixated on the fastball and forget the concept of calling pitches in a game is to give your team the utmost advantage over the current batter. You may get away with the fastball thru 12u but by high school age your pitchers need to be versed in other pitches if they want to be anywhere beyond sectionals in the playoffs. Her spotting of her fastball better be rembrandt quality because your better teams can hit any fastball today. Why do you think your team sails by the first few times thru the batting order, then gets drilled about the 4th or 5th inning? They timed her up people!!! Come on coaches get smart. Change that pitcher out and give them another look or call some pitches they haven't seen! If they timed up the fastball, continuing to call it isn't going to do anything but push your pitcher out of her comfort zone. She sees the need for more and begins overthrowing. This creates mechanical problems that wear her out and put her physically at risk for injury.

amen to that!!! Great post boss

 

[BretMan2]

The pitching circle really has ZERO to do with illegal pitches. There's no rule that says the pitcher can't stride out of it.

The ONLY application of the pitching circle in the rules is for the Look Back rule.

 

[daboss]

The pitching circle really has ZERO to do with illegal pitches. There's no rule that says the pitcher can't stride out of it.

The ONLY application of the pitching circle in the rules is for the Look Back rule.

Thank you for clearing this up for me BretMan2. I've never seen a pitcher called for it and now I understand why. I must have been confusing the batter's box with the circle. I get confused once in a while but I admit when I'm wrong-------------if I know about it. lol. I DO know 8ft is a long stride forward and even my tallest pitchers do not come out of the circle on the release of a pitch. However,

I do preach for them to follow the pitch out and assume a defensive position on their fastball. The spin pitches they do seldom challenges the circle. For beginning pitchers, many need to be encouraged to follow thru due to the fact many young girls are afraid they will be in trouble if their foot leaves the pitching plate. They'll have that push off foot glued down till they finally get comfortable with following out and away. Kinda comical at times but fun to work thru.