Overhand Throwing Speed

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Overhand speed: FIRST - be certain she is using sound throwing mechanics, especially well timed weight shift as Howard explained. Then, IMO, a target speed of 60 would be a reasonable goal for 14u & up. By 16u, if it's less than 60, I would revisit her throwing mechanics.

The "off-topic" pitching stuff: It all comes down to where the batter perceives the pitch is going, not where the pitch actually goes - which explains why pitches in the dirt are still sometimes swung at. With a "rise", the batter perceives the ball rising, when it is actually just dropping less. Thus, the tired old expression "But I SEEN it rise!"

I agree with you 100%.

 

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I'll go read the shared information soon but while my old mind is thinking about it, I'd like to share some facts to consider when comparing baseballs and softballs.

The size of the ball is a factor in how it will react when thrown. The larger ball will "move" before the smaller ball with the same effort. Also, stitching needs to be considered and how far they are pulled upward or away from the outer surface of the ball. Throwing the ball to utilize 4 seams cutting thru the air will get you more opportunity for movement compared to 2 seams spinning. Think about larger balls and what you can make them do by simply throwing them differently. If we used a beach ball in our game, everyone would be able to make a ball dance.

I was recently asked what I considered a successful spin pitch in relation to how much the ball should move. My personal opinion is; enough the batter would swing and miss. If a ball would move even the width of a bat barrel or better yet, the width of a softball, there's a good chance the final result will be a foul ball or swing and miss. Spin pitches don't need to be boomerangs to be successful.

If I throw a four seam fastball with a softball or baseball , the ball will be much straighter than if I would throw a 2 seam fastball, so I have to disagree somewhat, however when throwing a curve ball you would actually want all 4 seams catching the air to make it curve more, seems a little confusing, but true. I love discussing these issues, everyone has different opinions, and it is cool hearing them.

 

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Wow....talk about a major thread hijack and getting off topic. I guess there aren't enough threads about pitching around here. Jeesh.
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Sorry about getting offf the topic, sometimes it is just easier to talk about it now instead of starting a new thread.

 

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The rise ball, more than any other pitch is fighting gravity because it is thrown in an upward trajectory. Higher pitches will almost always be slower than lower pitches. Have a pitcher throw ten chest high fastballs and ten knee high fastballs and the low pitches will average faster speeds.

No its called using your wrist. Wrist snap adds speed to the ball. For the Rise ball the wrist is not adding speed to the ball its adding spin to the ball, thus its thrown slower.

I think the main reason the rise could be slower in this age group is because of imperfect technique. Trying to put an effective "undercut" to get good backspin with the wrist aggressively bent is difficult to master, especially while trying to maintain good speed. So the speed suffers until the pitcher is more comfortable with the delivery.

Gravity does play a part in reducing the speed of pitches, but the difference in trajectory between a chest-high and knee-high pitch is not more than 2 or 3 degrees. Any measurable difference in speed between fastballs between the chest and knees is purely dependent on the mechanics of the pitch. A drop, usually thrown low, is going to have (SHOULD have) more spin than a straight fastball. In this age group, it's typical that a pitcher trying to induce aggressive spin will have a slower speed on those pitches - especially when trying to throw a turnover drop. A "drop" that comes in averaging the same speed as the pitcher's fastball probably didn't have any forward spin to make it drop, and was probably just a low fastball labeled as a "drop".

The data shown here shows the average speed of the movement pitches is nearly identical to the straight fastballs. This leads me to believe that quite a few of these movement pitches were thrown with improper, or lack of, spin and probably didn't move as expected. In other words, they were nothing more than another fastball.

It's interesting that female overhand throwing speeds almost exactly follow the same curve progression as underhand pitch speeds. Yet, the mechanics of the two are as different as night and day.

A peel drop will be faster then a rollover drop. Wrist on peel drop is snapping along with the fingers adding both speed and spin. Roll over drop is adding spin only to the ball and therefor is slower. If a pitcher can throw both what an asset that can be.

Throwing mechanics from over hand to under hand is not that different. Both use legs to push off, both use snapping of the wrist to add speed and control, both snap at the elbow to add speed(at least the great pitchers do), and both use the shoulder as a lever and the muscles to add power.

We have all seen pitchers throw curveballs in baseball as well as softball, so why would anyone debate a riseball?? If a pitcher can create enough spin to make the ball move horizontally, then why would it be impossible to do it vertically??

Its called GRAVITY. Spinning down goes with gravity, thus dropping faster. Spinning sideways does not fight gravity but uses wind and the magnus effect to break. Spinning upwards is fighting gravity (and losing badly), it just does not allow the ball to drop AS FAST as a ball spinning downward, which creates the ILLUSION.

Sorry about getting offf the topic, sometimes it is just easier to talk about it now instead of starting a new thread.

yes it is

 

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All normal over hand throwing is spinning the ball, and spinning it faster, then a pitchers rise ball (bottom up) and they dont rise do they.

 

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No its called using your wrist. Wrist snap adds speed to the ball. For the Rise ball the wrist is not adding speed to the ball its adding spin to the ball, thus its thrown slower.

I agree with this to a point. At advanced levels, pitchers have learned through years of practice to throw the rise with effective speed.

A peel drop will be faster then a rollover drop. Wrist on peel drop is snapping along with the fingers adding both speed and spin. Roll over drop is adding spin only to the ball and therefor is slower. If a pitcher can throw both what an asset that can be.

Notes:
A peel will generally break later because of the added speed.
A turnover drop can also be slightly modified to produce a drop-curve, giving both sideways and downward movement.

Throwing mechanics from over hand to under hand is not that different. Both use legs to push off, both use snapping of the wrist to add speed and control, both snap at the elbow to add speed(at least the great pitchers do), and both use the shoulder as a lever and the muscles to add power.

No - these mechanics are completely different. A baseball pitcher is doing an overhand throw, and is NOT primarily using the leg as a push, but using it as a pivot point for weight transfer. A fastpitch pitcher is aggressively pushing off with the foot/leg to gain momentum towards the target. The timing and efficiency of unloading the body, down to the fingertips creates a "chaining effect" - much like cracking a whip. This is where the majority of the ball speed comes from in both styles. But the weight transfer is a different animal.

This overhand throw "weight transfer" is what is lacking in many girl's mechanics. It is COMPLETELY different than the fastpitch windmill pitching motion/mechanics. Actually, bat swing mechanics are more closely related to overhand throwing mechanics than windmill pitching mechanics. A fastpitch pitcher may have sound pitching mechanics, while having poor overhand throwing mechanics - ever see a fastpitch pitcher field a bunt and sail it 2 feet over the first baseman's head? Or throw it in the dirt?

Hitter has stated on here many times how he an CB are teaching throwing mechanics before swing mechanics - the two are closely intertwined.

 

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A baseball pitcher is doing an overhand throw, and is NOT primarily using the leg as a push, but using it as a pivot point for weight transfer.

This statement does not make sense to me. Both types of pitchers use the drag leg as a pivot for weight transfer. Both types of pitchers push off the pitching plate towards the catcher. Baseball pitchers with proper mechanics push off so hard using their upper leg and glute that they get so low to the ground they are nearly scraping their knee (See Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, etc.) if their mechics are sound.

The misconception must come from the fact that fastpitch pitchers drag from their push where baseball pitchers do not. The reality is that in fastpitch the windmill action of the arm is moving in the same direction as the push making it easier to drag before release, whereas a baseball pitcher's arm direction is opposite of the start of the push, keeping the body balanced on the rear leg. Don't kid yourself, leg drive and hips are most important for a baseball pitcher's power using proper mechanics. They're not just stepping Sammy, they're pushing, and pushing hard, and maybe even harder than a fastpitch pitcher.

Len

 

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This statement does not make sense to me. Both types of pitchers use the drag leg as a pivot for weight transfer. Both types of pitchers push off the pitching plate towards the catcher. Baseball pitchers with proper mechanics push off so hard using their upper leg and glute that they get so low to the ground they are nearly scraping their knee (See Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, etc.) if their mechics are sound.

The misconception must come from the fact that fastpitch pitchers drag from their push where baseball pitchers do not. The reality is that in fastpitch the windmill action of the arm is moving in the same direction as the push making it easier to drag before release, whereas a baseball pitcher's arm direction is opposite of the start of the push, keeping the body balanced on the rear leg. Don't kid yourself, leg drive and hips are most important for a baseball pitcher's power using proper mechanics. They're not just stepping Sammy, they're pushing, and pushing hard, and maybe even harder than a fastpitch pitcher.

Len

Len do the glutes fire the same in a female as it does in a male?

Howard

 

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This statement does not make sense to me. Both types of pitchers use the drag leg as a pivot for weight transfer. Both types of pitchers push off the pitching plate towards the catcher. Baseball pitchers with proper mechanics push off so hard using their upper leg and glute that they get so low to the ground they are nearly scraping their knee (See Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, etc.) if their mechics are sound.

The misconception must come from the fact that fastpitch pitchers drag from their push where baseball pitchers do not. The reality is that in fastpitch the windmill action of the arm is moving in the same direction as the push making it easier to drag before release, whereas a baseball pitcher's arm direction is opposite of the start of the push, keeping the body balanced on the rear leg. Don't kid yourself, leg drive and hips are most important for a baseball pitcher's power using proper mechanics. They're not just stepping Sammy, they're pushing, and pushing hard, and maybe even harder than a fastpitch pitcher.

Len

Len - If MLB baseball pitchers were pushing off as hard as you indicate, their stride would be twice what a typical fastpitch pitcher's is - AND you would be seeing tremendous leaping in baseball pitchers. We don't see either, simply because of the difference in weight transfer methods. The pic of Seaver, for instance, shows me a pitcher with a very long stride - the reason for his low profile and knee close to the ground. In baseball, a pitcher can actually over-stride. In fastpitch, it's a struggle getting girls to explosively stride farther.

Advanced baseball pitching mechanics employ a "balance-and-fall" type of weight transfer combined with a slight push, where fastpitch uses a pure "leg drive" explosive push-type transfer. Unlike baseball, a high percentage of the power in fastpitch pitching is dependent on the leg drive.

Since overhand throwing and hitting mechanics are closely related, hopefully dads are NOT teaching kids to push off with the back foot in either of these. Please leave the pushing-off mechanics to the fastpitch pitchers...

 

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If I throw a four seam fastball with a softball or baseball , the ball will be much straighter than if I would throw a 2 seam fastball, so I have to disagree somewhat, however when throwing a curve ball you would actually want all 4 seams catching the air to make it curve more, seems a little confusing, but true. I love discussing these issues, everyone has different opinions, and it is cool hearing them.

There are some factors here you may or may not be aware of in regards to how the pitcher holds the ball and how she actually releases it. We don't know each other so don't be upset if this seems trivial. I'm simply trying to explain myself and possibly help everyone understand a few things about pitching and the results you'll normally get when done properly.

If you hold a softball to throw a fastball and properly follow thru with a finish wrist snap that resembles a parent giving a small child a tap on the butt (spank), the way you position the ball in your hand will determine how many seams will tumble in its path to target. The fastball will spin as it comes off your fingertips. That spinning motion will have the ball spinning downward; allowing us to argue that there is no such thing as a fastball in fastpitch softball.

That downward spin is the same as a drop ball so in essence, it is a "form" of a drop she is throwing. This is why some pitchers throw a sinking fastball that has a downward trajectory. This is mirrored by a baseball pitcher's tailing fastball. The key factor is how the ball is held and how it tumbles at release. 4 seams will effect the ball more than 2 seams.

If your pitcher throws a fastball where at release she rolls her wrist to spin the ball sideways as if shot out of a rifled gun barrel, the ball WILL travel in a straighter line to target. Just as the rifling in a barrel spins a bullet on a straighter path, the ball will do the same. Most of the pitchers that throw this fastball do not reach full velocity because part of the wrist snap's energy is used to spin the ball in a direction other than towards the target. We use the term "spank" to relate to our wrist snap and encourage a cleaner release and more wrist snap. We call it "putting the spank in our fastball."

Having said this, if a pitcher holds a ball to throw a 2-seam fastball, and instead throws an executed curveball, the ball will be spinning with 4 seams cutting the air. If she holds the ball for a 2-seam fastball and executes the fastball motion with a sideways rolling release, this ball will travel straight/flat to target as the 4 seams will be spinning like out of a high dollar Weatherby rifle.

My point is; without having a pitcher demonstrate each pitch so we can compare notes about how she executes each one, I could be or all of us could be missing some key elements that give us the true reason on "why" we disagree on how a pitch reacts when thrown. It's easy to miss some of the details when our pitchers throw with some outstanding motions, arm speed, and wrist snap.

I understand how easy it is for us to disagree, but let me finish with one last thought. I'm not a stick in the mud instructor that expects a child to throw with a patented motion. We're working with human beings here and they are all unique in their own way. If I have a girl that can throw her riseball as a rising curve and she struggles to get it clean, I'll go with developing her rising curve. My objective is to get the ball to move. If everyone threw the same curveball and it reacted the same for everyone, we'd never throw that pitch because hitters would learn to hit it. It's the human element that gives each pitcher "personality" which in turn becomes a style.

I'm fine with that!!!

 

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Sent you a PM which might help understanding the differences.

Howard

 

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Len - If MLB baseball pitchers were pushing off as hard as you indicate, their stride would be twice what a typical fastpitch pitcher's is - AND you would be seeing tremendous leaping in baseball pitchers. We don't see either, simply because of the difference in weight transfer methods. The pic of Seaver, for instance, shows me a pitcher with a very long stride - the reason for his low profile and knee close to the ground. In baseball, a pitcher can actually over-stride. In fastpitch, it's a struggle getting girls to explosively stride farther.

Advanced baseball pitching mechanics employ a "balance-and-fall" type of weight transfer combined with a slight push, where fastpitch uses a pure "leg drive" explosive push-type transfer. Unlike baseball, a high percentage of the power in fastpitch pitching is dependent on the leg drive.

Since overhand throwing and hitting mechanics are closely related, hopefully dads are NOT teaching kids to push off with the back foot in either of these. Please leave the pushing-off mechanics to the fastpitch pitchers...

Sammy

I don't know where you are getting your advanced pitching mechanics from, but you are waaayyyyy off! Balance-and-fall?? Slight push?? Over-stride?? WRONG AGAIN SAMMY!

Leg drive is huge for a baseball pitcher. The longer the stride the better. Long strides are due to the tremendous push from the back leg, the jetting out of the stride leg, the hip torque, the trunk torque, the shoulder torque, and the angular momentum of the arm/elbow. The stride and follow-through is so explosive it causes most pithers to fall off to their glove side. The faster a pitcher can do all these things the faster the pitch will be. The overhand baseball pitch is the most "violent move" in any sport....PERIOD!!

By the way, it is not legal for a baseball pitcher to leap, drag, etc. The rules state that a pitcher must "step" to the plate. It's how hard a pitcher "steps" that makes a huge difference. So I will indeed NOT leave the pushing-off mechanics to the fastpitch pitcher as you have asked me to do. It's just as important for a baseball pitcher, whether you want to believe it or not. Below is a link to a page that contains an ESPN Sports Science piece about pitching using Chapman as the example.

Len


http://pitchingmechanics.net/how-fast-should-your-pitching-stride-be/

 

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Len do the glutes fire the same in a female as it does in a male?

Howard

What the heck are you talking about Howard? I'm talking about the difference between fastpitch pitching mechanics and baseball pitching mechanics, not man versus woman. Maybe you need to spend some time helping Sammy understand proper baseball pitching mechanics instead of trying to turn this thread into a "man vs. woman" body parts debate.

Len

 

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What the heck are you talking about Howard? I'm talking about the difference between fastpitch pitching mechanics and baseball pitching mechanics, not man versus woman. Maybe you need to spend some time helping Sammy understand proper baseball pitching mechanics instead of trying to turn this thread into a "man vs. woman" body parts debate.

Len

You answered my question and it does pertain to over hand throwing which I thought this thread was about.

Howard

 

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You answered my question and it does pertain to over hand throwing which I thought this thread was about.

Howard

If you read my posts closely I dispute the incorrect statememts made by one of your lemmings pertaining to proper or "advanced" baseball pitching mechanics, not the difference between the anatomies of male and female. Whether you are male or female, if you are performing a baseball pitch proper mechancis suggest a hard, fast, forward explosion towards the target. If you are a fastpitch pitcher, proper mechanics suggest a hard, fast, forward explosion towards the target. The pitching styles are different but the intent of the forward stride is the same. My posts are still pertinent to the thread since the baseball pitch is an overhand throw and the proper mechanics I have posted pertain to increasing speed.

Len

 

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A nice thing about being a lemming is you can speak your own mind and if you need more information there are many sources to choose from...networking.

I thought you understanding how the glutes fire in a female verses a male would assist you in your discussion.

Happy Holidays Howard

 

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A nice thing about being a lemming is you can speak your own mind and if you need more information there are many sources to choose from...networking.
Happy Holidays Howard

It appears one of the lemmings should have done some serious lemming networking BEFORE posting the steaming pile he submitted.


Happy Holidays to you Howard and I honestly wish nothing but the best for you and your family.

Len

 

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It appears one of the lemmings should have done some serious lemming networking BEFORE posting the steaming pile he submitted.


Happy Holidays to you Howard and I honestly wish nothing but the best for you and your family.

Len

C'mon Len! Flattery will get you nowhere! But I'll try to start you down the road to enlightenment...

Torque and quickness is the major element in baseball pitching velocity. If you have watched the video from the link you posted, you'll notice that little is said about gaining power from "pushing off" with the back foot - and for good reason. The velocity comes from the torque and quickness of the throwing motion - which really doesn't kick in until just before his stride foot plants. All the push is doing is getting his stride foot out to a distance that will maximize the upper body loading, and quickness of unloading it. A baseball pitcher is slower and controlled to foot plant, getting everything perfectly loaded. Essentially, the more you can twist a rubber band, and the quicker it unwinds, the more speed you will generate.

Baseball pitching is loading and unloading, while windmill softball pitching is resistance. Until you understand the differences between how a baseball pitcher and windmill softball pitcher generate velocity, this will just go in circles... which would generate torque and velocity too!

 

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Very few girls "AVERAGE" 60 mph overhand. The NFCA numbers contain a large sample size that allows you to make assumptions. Also, the radar guns used at NFCA are good guns that can be checked for accuracy prior to each camp. I heard one father at an NFCA Camp in 2010 say his daughter threw at 65 mph. Her two times were 55 and 56 which are decent times, but that is not close to 65. You can easily see the difference between 55 and 60 let alone 65. If you want to know your daughters true velocity. Find a good gun and make sure it is calibrated. Have her throw ten times and throw out the low and high. Take the 8 throws and find out the average. I know a girl who does "AVERAGE" 65. When she cuts loose you know it. Her highest velocity out of ten throws was 69 and the lowest 61. By the way, at the NFCA camp she was at clocked at 63 and 64 in 2010. I think the posting of the NFCA averages is accurate.

 

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C'mon Len! Flattery will get you nowhere! But I'll try to start you down the road to enlightenment...

Torque and quickness is the major element in baseball pitching velocity. If you have watched the video from the link you posted, you'll notice that little is said about gaining power from "pushing off" with the back foot - and for good reason. The velocity comes from the torque and quickness of the throwing motion - which really doesn't kick in until just before his stride foot plants. All the push is doing is getting his stride foot out to a distance that will maximize the upper body loading, and quickness of unloading it. A baseball pitcher is slower and controlled to foot plant, getting everything perfectly loaded. Essentially, the more you can twist a rubber band, and the quicker it unwinds, the more speed you will generate.

Baseball pitching is loading and unloading, while windmill softball pitching is resistance. Until you understand the differences between how a baseball pitcher and windmill softball pitcher generate velocity, this will just go in circles... which would generate torque and velocity too!

From the page link I provided:

"It talks about why Chapman is able to throw so hard, as compared to the rest of the games hardest throwing pitchers. One of the main components of his delivery that Tom House points out, is his stride. Tom House started the National Pitching Association and is the pitching coach at the University of Southern California. What Tom House says about Chapman?s stride is that it is 120% of his height which comes to 7.5 feet and the average MLB pitcher has a stride length of 87% of his height. Not only does he have an amazing stride length but his stride speed is .8 of a second, 15 % faster than the average MLB pitcher.
To answer the question, ?How Fast Should Your Pitching Stride Be?,? the answer is as fast as you can get it."

Sorry Sammy but you can not enlighten me since I know what I am talking about. The portion I bolded from your post above can also be said about fastpitch pitching.

Do a test....if you dare:
Have a fastpitch pitcher throw their normal fastball and gun the speed so you have a reference point. Have the same fastpitch pitcher fire off the pitching plate as hard as they can with their throwing hand stationary at their side and without shoulder, trunk, and hip torque, let go of the ball and gun the speed....if you can. Then, have the same pitcher set up in the k-position where the front foot landed from the first thrown fastball, and without striding but using shoulder, trunk, and hip torque along with an arm circle, pitch a fastball and gun the speed.

Now, do similar test with a baseball pitcher and compare results. I guarantee you the results will be very similar in the "percentage change" catagory.

Len