Overhand Throwing Speed

[default]

Here is the most recent numbers recorded at a On Deck camp hosted in Arizona.
Red is 2013's
Blue is 2014's
Gray is 2015's

http://www.ondecksoftball.net/uploads/pages/ODM Results - PHX.pdf

 

[default]

Do you think that an effective rise ball can be thrown at an average of 54mph? My point was that it is laughable to think you HAVE a rise ball at 54mph. Just call it a high fastball or an upshoot and be done with it. Rise ball my a$$.....

Len

If you call it a rise ball because it is rising, I agree with you. If you call it a rise ball because it is thrown properly and has the correct low release point, with backwards spin on it and comes across the plate between the pits and forehead, it is a riseball. Just like most 10 - 12 year olds learning a screw or curve, that spins correctly, how much do most of them really break? In my opinion if a pitcher can get proper spin on their pitch, they have successfully learned the pitch. Next comes the years of practice to develop and make that pitch actually work.

My DD learned the rise ball very young because she was getting perfect riseball spin on her attempt at a screw ball, so we went with it. She threw that pitch for years and no, it didn't rise but we still called it her riseball. Now she is 14 and is throwing in the mid 50s so it is just now starting to work for her. Keep in mind even the Osterman's and Finch's of the world don't throw a true rise ball. The ball is thrown with an upward trajectory so any increase in elevation is due to the trajectory of the pitch not the spin actually making it rise. The spin does reduce the amount of drop the ball has and makes it drop less than a fastball, so the spin does combat gravity, but a human can not get enough spin and speed on it to overcome gravity and truly make the ball rise.

Too many people discourage young girls that can't throw 55+ from learning the riseball. Why? So it won't rise, she'll still get plenty of strike outs with it anyway and more importantly when she gets fast enough to make it work, she'll have been throwing it for years already and hopefully won't throw it over the backstop with the winning run on third base.

I'm in agreement with Hillhouse, other than a change-up the drop and rise are the two most important pitches there are. Why not learn them young? All this is assuming the girl can locate her fastball and has a good change.

Sorry for rambling off topic.........hyjack aborted.

 

[default]

Too many people discourage young girls that can't throw 55+ from learning the riseball. Why? So it won't rise, she'll still get plenty of strike outs with it anyway and more importantly when she gets fast enough to make it work, she'll have been throwing it for years already and hopefully won't throw it over the backstop with the winning run on third base.

+1.

 

[default]

Sammy

I don't know where you are getting your advanced pitching mechanics from, but you are waaayyyyy off! Balance-and-fall?? Slight push?? Over-stride?? WRONG AGAIN SAMMY!

Leg drive is huge for a baseball pitcher. The longer the stride the better. Long strides are due to the tremendous push from the back leg, the jetting out of the stride leg, the hip torque, the trunk torque, the shoulder torque, and the angular momentum of the arm/elbow. The stride and follow-through is so explosive it causes most pithers to fall off to their glove side. The faster a pitcher can do all these things the faster the pitch will be. The overhand baseball pitch is the most "violent move" in any sport....PERIOD!!

By the way, it is not legal for a baseball pitcher to leap, drag, etc. The rules state that a pitcher must "step" to the plate. It's how hard a pitcher "steps" that makes a huge difference. So I will indeed NOT leave the pushing-off mechanics to the fastpitch pitcher as you have asked me to do. It's just as important for a baseball pitcher, whether you want to believe it or not. Below is a link to a page that contains an ESPN Sports Science piece about pitching using Chapman as the example.

Len


http://pitchingmechanics.net/how-fast-should-your-pitching-stride-be/

I have to agree with Len on this one. Not saying either one is more important , baseball stride or softball stride, but they are equally as important. Take a close look at Lincecum from the Giants. His stride is at least as far as he is tall. A stride from a baseball pitcher is a HUGE part of their mechanics. I don't know if it is possible to overstride unless you are actually trying to jump off of the mound. Seems to me that most of the great pitchers in Baseball have a very long stride which means their leg drive is very important. Also take a look at Chapman from the Reds, his stride is really long also. I like the topic.JMHO

 

[default]

Here is the most recent numbers recorded at a On Deck camp hosted in Arizona.
Red is 2013's
Blue is 2014's
Gray is 2015's

http://www.ondecksoftball.net/uploads/pages/ODM Results - PHX.pdf

Roger, thanks for posting the data. Love seeing this type of information.

As a fellow lemming I have no expertise in this debate and would like to say I'm enjoying this regardless of my "faith".... and I'm not offended either

Hope y'all can get this one figured out before someone throws their fingers "out" from typing ... will need to see Dr. Kremchek before it's over... do you guys have rotational or linear typing techniques...hoping to refine my words per minute. Or are you squishing bugs on your keyboards.... geesh :lmao:

 

[default]

Just a thought....female glutes work like a ball joint verses a male whose glutes fire the ACL as a hinge. Source Dr. David Marshall Children's Hospital Atlanta.

If you speculate or wonder why the ACL is at risk for females do your own research and I will not bore you with the details and if you wonder why they have shoulder issues do your own research.

From the net....

"Some kids try to push off the mound. There's some debate about this, but most good pitching people will tell you not to push off. Actually the back foot rolls over and is launched out to the side as the hips pull the back leg off the rubber. Pushing off the rubber does not generate more power, in fact, it usually pushes the lower body out in front of the upper body too far, too fast, and then the upper body and arms are simply trying to play catch-up. At this point since all of the timing is off, you'll end up with a very inconsistent pitcher, that would develop poorer mechanics, with reduced velocity and a sore arm. Also, if they are bent on pushing off the mound, since the legs are the first to give way to fatigue, as the post leg gets tired, they're not pushing off with the same drive as the first inning, and have no rhythm or consistent fluid motion."


"Solutions Don't push off the mound. Stride sideways and lead the forward movement with the high knee drops with your front hip. Glide into a nice, long foot plant. Stride should be at least 80% of your height."

We do a drill that uses the whole body to throw with the player on their knees facing the net with the belly button facing the net and they fall forward from momentum with out using the legs to push off. Since they are on their knees you can not use the lower legs or drive with the foot.

Les you saw us do this with your step daughter so you might have a few words to add if you choose to.

Once they understand this process they stand up again belly button facing the net with a stance as if hitting and twist/ turn and throw the ball and if done correctly they will not be able to keep the throwing arm leg from moving forward as they throw.

Sammy in my opinion you are not that far off.

Thanks for sharing what worked for your daughter who pitched at a D 1 school in Ohio.

Howard

 

[default]

Navarro, the shortstop for Arkansas throws 72.

Coop nobody cares bro!:lmao:

 

[default]

Wow, man welcome back bro, I missed you too.

 

[default]

Interesting stats rdelawder. That page should be made a "sticky" for reference. Off topic, but the 20 yard times are interesting too. Bursts a lot of bubbles claiming a 2.8 time.

 

[default]

Howard

Concerning your "From The Net" comment, I can paste information from websites of "respected" hitting coaches pertaining to pure rotational or pure linear hitting styles being the correct method, so your little clip from Ellis' website means absolutely nothing without backing it up with the actual physics of maximizing pitching velocity.

Go ahead, ignore the physics, ignore the videos of Chapman and Lincecum. Ignore the styles of hard throwers who withstand the test of time concerning arm health like Ryan, Johnson, Seaver, Gibson, etc. Ignore the fact that the hardest throwers have strides over 110% of their respective heights. Ignore the torquing of the pitchers' plant shoe as they push towards the plate. Ignore the fact that their plant foot is up against the pitching plate instead of on top of the pitching plate.

Ignore the facts. Ignore the science. Ignore the proof.

Len

 

[default]

Len

The main point I was trying to make from the thread was over hand throwing.

It is different as to the glutes in that the female is upper body dominate by nature and most male coaches try to teach them how to throw like we do and they do not get it by simply saying do this or do that until they can feel the difference them self.

Five pitching coaches or five hitting coaches and probably five different opinions on how to do it.

Howard

 

[default]

Len

The main point I was trying to make from the thread was over hand throwing.

It is different as to the glutes in that the female is upper body dominate by nature and most male coaches try to teach them how to throw like we do and they do not get it by simply saying do this or do that until they can feel the difference them self.

Five pitching coaches or five hitting coaches and probably five different opinions on how to do it.

Howard

No....your main point was to try to rescue a friend that was in trouble concerning baseball pitching mechanics, trying to back your friend by the use of defelection (switching from baseball pitching mechanics to female vs male anatomy and congratulating your friend for having a D1 softball pitcher), and a random copy and paste from the internet. It's okay, I commend you for sticking up for a friend, no matter the issue.

Len

 

[default]

Len

I posted this way before Sammy made his comments and I feel strongly about the male verses female differences in over hand throwing due to the glutes and ACL issues.

You are also correct about Sammy being a friend.

Going back and forth on this issue of a push or rotation is not serving any purpose.

Howard



"Agree with LK, 45 to 55 typical and 55 to 60 plus when taught correctly.

Weight shift is virtually non existent in most females in my opinion which is why we teach how to throw first. We build from there to incorporate it into the hitting.

Little to no weight shift in hitting normally means a poor throwing technique as seen by the back leg not following around or landing on as stiff front leg.

Landing on the ball of the front foot on a flexed front knee at about 40 to 45 degrees seems to work pretty well.

Gerry built me a 16 x 16 x 5 inch box so the girls can step off the box and throw and they get the feel of it very quickly. The glutes do not fire in a female like a male does. Our knee works more like a hinge upon jumping or landing and theirs work more like a ball joint. They can be taught however.

Mark posted that Coach Candrea personally shows each freshman how to throw himself.

Crystl and I started teaching our kids at the clinics how to throw before we started teaching hitting and it has worked pretty well for us. I think it was 2003 or 2004 when we changed it.'

Howard

 

[default]

Good post Roger. This is consistent with the NFCA stingray camp. The 20 yard dash times, Im getting a chuckle reading profiles of kids that are sub 2.75 . 2 years ago only three kids were at the 2.8 range out of 300 plus kids at The Queen of Diamonds. . I knew 2 of them. Profiles are fun to read

 

[default]

Good post Roger. This is consistent with the NFCA stingray camp. The 20 yard dash times, Im getting a chuckle reading profiles of kids that are sub 2.75 . 2 years ago only three kids were at the 2.8 range out of 300 plus kids at The Queen of Diamonds. . I knew 2 of them. Profiles are fun to read

I tell people my dd can run 60 feet in about 3.4 seconds. With my luck, when my dd actually gets timed at an NFCA camp, she'll run it in about 4.5 seconds.

Len

 

[default]

If you call it a rise ball because it is rising, I agree with you. If you call it a rise ball because it is thrown properly and has the correct low release point, with backwards spin on it and comes across the plate between the pits and forehead, it is a riseball. Just like most 10 - 12 year olds learning a screw or curve, that spins correctly, how much do most of them really break? In my opinion if a pitcher can get proper spin on their pitch, they have successfully learned the pitch. Next comes the years of practice to develop and make that pitch actually work.

My DD learned the rise ball very young because she was getting perfect riseball spin on her attempt at a screw ball, so we went with it. She threw that pitch for years and no, it didn't rise but we still called it her riseball. Now she is 14 and is throwing in the mid 50s so it is just now starting to work for her. Keep in mind even the Osterman's and Finch's of the world don't throw a true rise ball. The ball is thrown with an upward trajectory so any increase in elevation is due to the trajectory of the pitch not the spin actually making it rise. The spin does reduce the amount of drop the ball has and makes it drop less than a fastball, so the spin does combat gravity, but a human can not get enough spin and speed on it to overcome gravity and truly make the ball rise.

Too many people discourage young girls that can't throw 55+ from learning the riseball. Why? So it won't rise, she'll still get plenty of strike outs with it anyway and more importantly when she gets fast enough to make it work, she'll have been throwing it for years already and hopefully won't throw it over the backstop with the winning run on third base.

I'm in agreement with Hillhouse, other than a change-up the drop and rise are the two most important pitches there are. Why not learn them young? All this is assuming the girl can locate her fastball and has a good change.

Sorry for rambling off topic.........hyjack aborted.

Great Post, you hit it right on the head. There is no such thing as a rise ball, only does not drop as quickly due to the spin. Still however, a great pitch to master.

 

[default]

Stand and throw overhand with your feet close together (without striding). Now simply stride out a little farther than you would for a typical batting stride, stop, and throw again. Just as with hitting, the loading/coiling/"winding the rubber band" continues right up to foot plant. Right at foot plant the unloading begins. The power generated in the unloading phase is dependent on how well the loading phase was executed - including balance and timing.

This is the same concept as high level hitting. Do advanced hitters push off with their back foot for power? Or is the back foot action just a RESULT of the rest of the swing mechanics? If your daughter knows how to swing properly, just take the bat from her hands and give her a ball and have her throw overhand. Her weight shift, loading and lower body mechanics should be nearly identical. If not...

The focus should be on how to teach females to execute a properly balanced stride, load and weight shift. Comparisons to baseball pitching will not serve a teenage female athlete well in teaching her to throw (or hit) properly.

I tend to trust someone who has done years of research about the anatomical differences between males and females, and takes that into account when teaching throwing/hitting mechanics... Someone who's teaching has helped many girls achieve their dream of playing college softball.

 

[default]

Les you saw us do this with your step daughter so you might have a few words to add if you choose to.

I did see the issue and the result... hard to argue with progress. Mechanics are hard to make them feel right away and you sir have a way with getting them to do that. All I can say is we work towards something that is "felt, measurable and with consistent training and hard work hopefully put on a path to success and reduced chance of injury" and words are useless without the ladies seeing it for themselves and I thank you for proving it time and time again (save the lemming garbage for someone that cares when I get attacked for seeing it with my own eyes and I'm not weighing in on all the other BS... just Howard's quote). As others have said, there are many ways to skin a cat... some like to start at the feet, some at the head... others like grabbing the hole of waste... to each his own.

Hard to weigh in on all of this for I don't think my resume matches up on this wonderful demonstration of at home knowledge that some have. I'll watch, listen, and filter as my ignorance is bliss.

Musty and Gophy... keep quiet...

 

[default]

Musty and Gophy... keep quiet...

I can't say anything.................... I'm on my 4th bag of popcorn on this thread. :lmao:.......................and lovin' it.

 

[default]

I'm glad you aren't eating Cheetos and watching from your bean bag chair again...