Overhand Throwing Speed

[default]

The only thing I question is if there is a "standard" for checking speed ?

I know last year at the NFCA Camp at Berliner, my dd was tossed a ball (resembled soft toss) and while standing 3-5 feet in front of a net flat footed with no step, threw into the net while someone stood behind with a gun. Could be a big difference if you fielded a ball and had momentum. Of course , she was a rookie at it and maybe other girls that had been there before new how to make the most of it. Experience and Learn.

 

[default]

Can the admin's add a like and dislike button for the posts on the forum? I'd have more fun with it. :cap:

 

[default]

Stand and throw overhand with your feet close together (without striding). Now simply stride out a little farther than you would for a typical batting stride, stop, and throw again. Just as with hitting, the loading/coiling/"winding the rubber band" continues right up to foot plant. Right at foot plant the unloading begins. The power generated in the unloading phase is dependent on how well the loading phase was executed - including balance and timing.

Sorry, but the unloading process happens before foot plant. If you do not start to unload the hips towards the end of the stride then the front foot would land at a 90 degree angle to the target.

This is the same concept as high level hitting. Do advanced hitters push off with their back foot for power? Or is the back foot action just a RESULT of the rest of the swing mechanics? If your daughter knows how to swing properly, just take the bat from her hands and give her a ball and have her throw overhand. Her weight shift, loading and lower body mechanics should be nearly identical. If not...

Tell an outfielder who has to throw out a runner tagging up to use her proper swing mechanics to throw the ball 130 feet or so to the base to get the runner out. Tell her to use her standard weight shift, loading, and lower body mechanics used in her hitting to get the job done. Don't push hard to the target with the plant leg for heaven's sake...because that would be incorrect.

The focus should be on how to teach females to execute a properly balanced stride, load and weight shift. Comparisons to baseball pitching will not serve a teenage female athlete well in teaching her to throw (or hit) properly.

I tend to trust someone who has done years of research about the anatomical differences between males and females, and takes that into account when teaching throwing/hitting mechanics... Someone who's teaching has helped many girls achieve their dream of playing college softball.

This was never about comparisons between baseball pitchers and a teenage female athlete. This was never about who you trust. This was about an incorrect statement you made about the proper mechanics of baseball pitching.

Len

 

[default]

I know of 3 great high school pitchers over the past 5 years that have injured their arms (shoulder, elbow) when throwing overhand and not pitching. The best pitchers spend their time practicing pitching which they should. However, keep in mind that many arm injuries come from throwing overhand. I suggest that parents and coaches keep an eye on the overhand mechanics of their pitchers. You may prevent an injury from happening.

 

[default]

I know of 3 great high school pitchers over the past 5 years that have injured their arms (shoulder, elbow) when throwing over hand and not pitching. The best pitchers spend their time practicing pitching which they should. However, keep in mind that many arm injuries come from throwing over hand. I suggest that parents and coaches keep an eye on the over hand mechanics of their pitchers. You may prevent and injury from happening.

Absolutely correct! Most elbow and arm injuries from overhand throwing occur from the improper mechanics of the lower body coupled with the over-compensating improper mechanics of the upper body.

Len

 

[default]

Interesting stats rdelawder. That page should be made a "sticky" for reference. Off topic, but the 20 yard times are interesting too. Bursts a lot of bubbles claiming a 2.8 time.

2.8 and 2.5 are achieveable, look at the times between 20 and 40, and note the difference. It all comes down to how you start; the girls all started in a very non proper looking 3 point stance. Some were very funny, including my own kids, wrong leg forward kind of stuff. However, the splits once they were moving was 2.5 to 2.8, so for those that do the home to 1st it depends on when the timer is started. I will state at the camps out here they put you on the peak of home plate and timer starts on first movement and it's hard to see anyone under 3.0! None of the starting from the left batter box like a slapper, so it keeps it kind of even for the righty and lefty. lol

 

[default]

2.8 and 2.5 are achieveable, look at the times between 20 and 40, and note the difference. It all comes down to how you start; the girls all started in a very non proper looking 3 point stance. Some were very funny, including my own kids, wrong leg forward kind of stuff. However, the splits once they were moving was 2.5 to 2.8, so for those that do the home to 1st it depends on when the timer is started. I will state at the camps out here they put you on the peak of home plate and timer starts on first movement and it's hard to see anyone under 3.0! None of the starting from the left batter box like a slapper, so it keeps it kind of even for the righty and lefty. lol

Hi Roger!
All kids started off in a 3 point stance? Wow, that's very interesting. Was their foot or hand at the peak of home plate?

Len

 

[default]

Hi Roger!
All kids started off in a 3 point stance? Wow, that's very interesting. Was their foot or hand at the peak of home plate?

Len

The gentlemen that runs the combines for college football players did this one here in AZ, he sets up cones in a straight line with an electronic eye at each set of cones to record as they pass that point. The idea of the 3 point is to get them on 1st movement, so it made sense to me, but as dd will be doing it again in Chicago on Jan 3rd, she now knows how to do a 3 point stance to accellerate at the beginning, so I cant wait to see the result differences.
The camps we've attended start everyone on a line drawn from the point of home plate to a line at first base. You see some amazing times, but nothing below 3.0 from home to 1st.

 

[default]

2.8 and 2.5 are achieveable, look at the times between 20 and 40, and note the difference. It all comes down to how you start; the girls all started in a very non proper looking 3 point stance. Some were very funny, including my own kids, wrong leg forward kind of stuff. However, the splits once they were moving was 2.5 to 2.8, so for those that do the home to 1st it depends on when the timer is started. I will state at the camps out here they put you on the peak of home plate and timer starts on first movement and it's hard to see anyone under 3.0! None of the starting from the left batter box like a slapper, so it keeps it kind of even for the righty and lefty. lol

Absolutely agree. A true 2.5 home-to-first is common for top athletes from the left box in a live game situation.

I've seen all sorts of crazy numbers from camps over the years. Obviously, how the drill is ran, and whether they are using accurately placed timing traps will drastically alter the results. A handheld stopwatch is not going to give accurate repeatable results. I've seen timing done by starting a hand stopwatch after first step, (???) which, other than being relatively repeatable, will obviously give some insanely fast times! Other than slappers, batters don't start running until contact with the ball - so at least simulating a batting situation from contact is going to yield truer results.

Assuming the charts from the On Deck camp reflect accurate timing, the value of the numbers to coaches is not so much about the final times, but more about comparing apples to apples - or athlete to athlete. Those numbers are a little high for a real-world game situation. In a game situation, I think a right side time of <>3.0, or left side of <>2.8 from contact would be common for a typical college athlete. IMO, a travel coach could "spot time" players in games from the dugout, which would give a decent baseline to work with.

 

[default]

Absolutely agree. A true 2.5 home-to-first is common for top athletes from the left box in a live game situation.

Hmmm.....A true 2.5 home-to-first is COMMON for top athletes in a live game situation?? Unbelievable! Would anyone care to back up this statement?:lmao::lmao:

Len

 

[default]

Well let's see... I'll repeat... "top athletes"... which are usually "world-class athletes", as in... "Olympic level athletes". Any certain athlete with the initials N. W. come to mind? Hello? Anyone home?

 

[default]

Well let's see... I'll repeat... "top athletes"... which are usually "world-class athletes", as in... "Olympic level athletes". Any certain athlete with the initials N. W. come to mind? Hello? Anyone home?

Oh Sammy.....you really make this waaay toooo easy.

Let me correct you once again. This is from an article called "Defending The Short Game":

http://www.menifeeasa.com/newsarticle.php?newsid=3

Please read the following excerpt very closely. This is from possibly the most respected fastpitch softball coach on this planet. This is from a man that has coached the highest level fastpitch softball athletes in the world. THE ONE.....THE ONLY.....MR. MIKE CANDREA.


"How fast is effective
Another question that I get is how fast a slapper has to be to be effective. This depends on the level you play but I will give you some general numbers. We time our slappers from the time they touch the ball until they touch first base. At the Division I level, if you can run under 2.9, you have the ability to put pressure on the defense. Some of the best that I have seen at the Olympic level and college run anywhere from 2.65 to 2.8. These are the Caitlin Lowes and Natasha Watleys who are the very best in the game. I always tell coaches at the high school and travel ball level that if you have a left-handed slapper that can run under 3.0, they will be effective. Over 3.0 and they will always get thrown out by a step or two unless they can make the ball bounce or place it in the right area of the infield."

It appears that the "World Class, Olympic Level, Top Athletes"...you know, the N.W.'s of the world...are actually in the range of 2.65 to 2.80.

Yes Sammy, it appears that I'm the person that's home. Can you hear me now? If you have better proof substantiating your statement, by all means please post it and I will change my mind.

Debating with you is like shooting fish in a barrel.....

Len

 

[default]

Why do so many people think that a swing from a fastpitch batter is so different than a baseball swing? I once had a coach tell me the two are completely different. I disagree, unless you are a slapper or something of that nature , a swing at a fastpitch softball is very similar to a swing at a baseball. Maybe, a litlle different angle, baseballs appear to angle down somewhat because of the mound height, and softballs seem to be angled up somewhat, but other that that does anyone see any major differences?

 

[default]

You are correct Extremist, there is no difference between a normal baseball and fastpitch softball swing. I never understood why anyone would think there should be a difference.

Len

 

[default]

You're so much fun Len! See? You ARE studying this stuff! Well, I guess if you're so adamant about splitting hairs over 10-20 milliseconds, I admit I was wrong, and stand corrected. So, back on that subject of throwing... have you found any studies explaining that weight shift phenomenon - from a standing throw? Cut n paste would be fine, but please be thorough!

Why do so many people think that a swing from a fastpitch batter is so different than a baseball swing? I once had a coach tell me the two are completely different. I disagree, unless you are a slapper or something of that nature , a swing at a fastpitch softball is very similar to a swing at a baseball. Maybe, a litlle different angle, baseballs appear to angle down somewhat because of the mound height, and softballs seem to be angled up somewhat, but other that that does anyone see any major differences?

Yes, for all intents - a fastpitch softball swing is nearly identical to a baseball swing. In the past it was thought that due to the softball pitch angle generally tending to be from low to high, the bat swing needed to be on a more downward plane to match the plane of the pitch. In recent years, this myth has fortunately been busted - just research what swing mechanics the best power softball hitters use today. I have several video clips showing high level softball swings side-by-side with baseball swings. If you've ever seen RVP, you can see them in that package. They are like mirror images. Amazingly, I have heard there are some lingering eastern college coaches who STILL cling to the old style.

 

[default]

I'd like to know what the step by step process is to be "called throwing" properly. I'm not an expert...but some sure seem to have it down. Please educate me so I can learn. Also curious as to how you all manage to keep shoulder injuries down.

The boys in the MLB don't have a fix all but surely it doesn't run wild in the injury department.

 

[default]

You're so much fun Len! See? You ARE studying this stuff! Well, I guess if you're so adamant about splitting hairs over 10-20 milliseconds, I admit I was wrong, and stand corrected. So, back on that subject of throwing... have you found any studies explaining that weight shift phenomenon - from a standing throw? Cut n paste would be fine, but please be thorough!

:lmao::lmao:Check your math Sammy, it's 15-30 hundredths of a second, or 1.5 to 3 tenths of a second difference. Sorry, but that's huge in a quick game like fastpitch. Anyway, let's talk about a standing throw.

Which type of standing throw would you like to talk about? Would you like to talk about the standing throw that the 2nd baseman makes to first from 30 feet away, the standing throw that the shortstop makes deep in the hole to first from about 80 to 85 feet away, the standing throw from the outfielder trying to throw out a runner at home from about 130 feet away, the standing throw from the catcher to 2nd base to get an out on a steal, the standing throw from a spectator from a foul ball back into the field of play, or any other standing throw you can think of? You do realize that they're all a little different depending on the situation, right? Anyway, it's up to you. I'm ready for any "standing throw" you want to talk about. Heck, I'll even talk about kneeling throws, on your back throws, on your stomach throws, and ungrounded throws if you want.

Len

 

[default]

In the interest of helping newer coaches who read this forum, the most overlooked one is the basic overhand throw you would teach a 10 year old girl new to the game of fastpitch. Sadly, there are 16 year old girls playing that were never shown proper, basic throwing mechanics - or were shown improperly. It's the same premise as you learn to walk before trying to run.

 

[default]

How do you all feel about this? I think that there are alot of girls , no matter how long we work on the proper throwing mechanics, just cannot get it. They come fairly close to doing it right, but I just don't know it they have the talent or their bodies or muscle memory will not allow them to do it. We even go backwards, back to the beginning of simple mechanics, and still they can't get it. I think a coach should recognize this , just try to get the best out of each kids individual abilities while still trying to teach them the right way, but really knowing they aren't ever going to get it right. Whats your opionion on this?

 

[default]

I'd like to know what the step by step process is to be "called throwing" properly. I'm not an expert...but some sure seem to have it down. Please educate me so I can learn. Also curious as to how you all manage to keep shoulder injuries down.

The boys in the MLB don't have a fix all but surely it doesn't run wild in the injury department.

The flight of the ball is a vector....it has both strength (speed and distance) and direction. The amount of strength needed in a throw is dependent upon how far away the target is and the amount of time necessary to get the ball to the target in time. The strength comes from the legs, hips, trunk, shoulders, elbow, and wrist. Most elbow and shoulder injuries come from improper technique, and the improper technique is the lack of use of the legs, hips, trunk, and elbow angle, causing the thrower to overcompensate by over-extending the elbow and shoulder.

Rule of thumb: Push/stride to perpendicular to target. Start hip rotation and stride foot should land at approximately a 10 to 15 degree angle to target. At the same time the glove and throw hand come just below, then upwards and behind the throw ear, throw hand seperating with ball away from glove hand as the elbow climbs to shoulder level and glove hand tricep facing target. At this point the hips rotate open to target, followed very shortly by the shouders rotating open to target while throw arm starts forward movment towards the target. The throw elbow should be at or very slightly above the shoulder, and the throwing angle should be around 80 degrees. All these movements follow through until until the the pivot/push leg lands parallel to slightly ahead of stride leg.

Len