question for bretman

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Runner on third
two outs
batter ?has a 3-0 count.
batter takes ball four and heads to first
meanwhile, runner on third gets a big lead toward home
catcher throws the ball back to pitcher (immediately after she catch's ball 4)
pitcher has the ball in the circle before batter reaches first base
runner rounds 1st base heads to second
pitcher throws the ball to second trying to get the third out
runner stops and returns to first
the runner on third mantains her lead during the whole time and once the pitcher throws to 2nd, she scores
the field umpire calls the runner from 1st out because she went back to 1st, 3rd out inning over
the home plate umpire comes out and says she is intilted to return since the pitcher made a play on her.
he says runner is safe, still only 2 outs.... inning wil continue
the coaches from the defensive team questions runner from third scoring and the home plate umpire makes her return to third ?(this was the tieing run in bottom of 5th inning)

The coaches questioned that the runner on third should have been called out because she maintained her lead the whole time.

The offenses coaches said that she can if the batter/runner doesn't stops at first

Again, the pitcher did have the ball in the circle before the runner even got to first base. The runner did not hesitate as she rounded 1st going to 2nd.

The pitcher not once looked at the runner from third.....

Should the runner on third have been called out, if not, then why was she made to go back to third?

 

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I have run into this in the past. The ball is still live until the batter/runner reaches first and stops. With the ball being live, the runner on third is free to take her lead. Once the ball is returned to the pitcher and the runner reaches first the runner on third would be safe to commit. Many umps seem to think that a walk is a deadball situation. I have seen countless give opposing coaches time-out before the runner even reaches first. Once the pitcher makes a "play" (once again different umps have different interpretations of what constitutes making a play) all runners are free to lead-off or advance.

 

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Oh, boy...this one sounds like the umpires were confused and the coaches were confused- which all adds up to a lot of confusion!

I'll try to break it down...

The Look Back Rule does not go into effect until the batter-runner safely touches first base. Up until that instant, the runner on third (or, any other runners, for that matter) are not bound by the LBR restrictions. They can stand off the bag as long as they want.

The instant the batter-runner touches first base, the LBR kicks in. If the runner from third is off the bag, she then must immediately either advance to home or retreat back to third. If she stands still off the bag longer than "immediately" (generally, interpreted as about a "one-thousand...two-thousand" count- just long enough to access the situation, pick up the ball and react to it) then she should be called out.

When the batter-runner rounds first base (perfectly legal, by the way) and the LBR is in effect, she may legally stop ONE TIME, then must immediately either return or advance. From what you described, this runner did absolutely nothing illegal and should not have been called out.

Things get a little complicated as far as the "timing" aspect of who did what when. When the pitcher made a play on the runner rounding first, the LBR is temporarily suspended and is not in effect. The runners are no longer bound by the LBR restrictions and can stop, reverse or stand off the bag all they want without penalty.

With respect to the runner from third: If she was standing off the bag longer than the "two-second" count AFTER the batter-runner touched first, but BEFORE the pitcher made a play, she should be called out. The timing aspect depends on what the runner was doing and when she was doing it.

So, on this play: The batter-runner never should have been called out in the first place and- regardless of the timing aspect of the play- the runner from third should not have been returned to third (she was either out or scored, depending on the sequence and timing of the play).

I hope that helps- without making things even more confusing!

 

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makes sense to me Bretman~
too bad a lot of umpires don't understand.
we had some this past weekend that thought a foul ball was fair just because the fielder had a foot in fair territory and touch it, but did not catch it.

Ok Bretman. I have one for you. a couple of weeks ago the umpire told my catcher she could not move any closer to the plate than the back of the batters box (there actually was one for a game)??? never heard that one before. I thought the catchers box went clear to the point of the plate. who knows. after this weekend, I don't believe I know anything about softball. I saw it all this weekend! USFA---NO WAY never again.