Rule question

[default]

In high school..

Umpire calls strike three BATTERS OUT and batter still runs all the way down through first.. At times this happens with runners on base. What is the ruling? From what I am interpreting it should be a delay of game and automatic strike one on the next batter..

 

[default]

In high school..

Umpire calls strike three BATTERS OUT and batter still runs all the way down through first.. At times this happens with runners on base. What is the ruling? From what I am interpreting it should be a delay of game and automatic strike one on the next batter..

..and part 2.Ball hits the dirt but catcher fields it cleanly-is it a dropped 3rd strike?

 

[default]

In high school..

Umpire calls strike three BATTERS OUT and batter still runs all the way down through first.. At times this happens with runners on base. What is the ruling? From what I am interpreting it should be a delay of game and automatic strike one on the next batter..

If a batter runs to first following a third strike, but isn't entitled to advance, there is no penalty. The act of running in itself is not a rule violation. See rule 8-6-18.

This batter could be guilty of interference, but ONLY if she subsequently interfered with an actual play on another runner, such as an active runner on first base who the defense is trying to pick off. Until/unless that happens there's no rule being broken and no call to be made here.

The "delay of game" and "penalty strike" rules only apply to a batter who is at-bat and fails to take her spot in the batter's box within ten seconds.

 

[default]

Panther, yes it is a dropped 3rd situation.

 

[default]

..and part 2.Ball hits the dirt but catcher fields it cleanly-is it a dropped 3rd strike?

It is an uncaught third strike and the batter may run (assuming less than two outs and first base unoccupied, or anytime there are two outs).

This play gets generically called a "dropped" third strike and that leads many to think that the ball must first be caught, then dropped. But the actual rule says the batter becomes a batter-runner when the third strike is "not caught", not when it is "dropped".

For a third strike to be caught, it must be caught "in-flight", never touching anything from the pitcher's hand to the catcher. If the pitch touches the ground, or the batter, or the bat, or the umpire before the catcher secures it, it is an uncaught third strike, because it was not caught in-flight.

 

[default]

For a third strike to be caught, it must be caught "in-flight", never touching anything from the pitcher's hand to the catcher. If the pitch touches the ground, or the batter, or the bat, or the umpire before the catcher secures it, it is an uncaught third strike, because it was not caught in-flight.

What about a foul tip?

 

[default]

Once the umpire says "batter's out" then it is a dead ball aside from other live runners and the batter who is out certainly cannot just be allowed to run down the base line after being called out.. I'm not talking about touching the ground or tips I'm saying a clean strike three with batters out call where the runner runs to and through first base..

 

[default]

What about a foul tip?

Looks like you caught Bretman in a bit of a goof......

EXCEPTION: FOUL TIP

Len

 

[default]

Once the umpire says "batter's out" then it is a dead ball aside from other live runners and the batter who is out certainly cannot just be allowed to run down the base line after being called out.. I'm not talking about touching the ground or tips I'm saying a clean strike three with batters out call where the runner runs to and through first base..

As Bretman said...Not a delay of game and there is no penalty unless there is interference with another play. Defense must be aware not to throw to first in that situation. If you think about it....how is it delaying the game? The runner will cross first base in less than five seconds (unless she's r e a l l y slow). During this time the ball is returned to the pitcher and the next batter is getting into the box. All of which will take more than five seconds.

I'll grant you that it is annoying when runners repeatedly do this, but not illegal.

 

[default]

Looks like you caught Bretman in a bit of a goof......

EXCEPTION: FOUL TIP

Len

No goof! This has been a long-debated play that only in recent years has been clarified through official interpretations.

Example: Two strikes on the batter. Pitch bounces before reaching the plate. Batter swings, barely nicks the ball, and it goes sharply and directly to the catcher's mitt and is caught.

The debate had always been: Is this an uncaught third strike or a foul tip? For the former, the batter would become a batter-runner with the right to advance to first base. For the latter, the batter would be out on strike three with the foul tip.

The first sanctioning body to issue an interpretation of this play was actually Major League Baseball. They ruled that this is a foul tip (ie: strike three and the batter is out). The reasoning is that once the ball is contacted by the bat, it is essentially no longer "a pitch". It is now "a batted ball" and thus subject to all of the usual rules covering batted balls- including the foul tip rule.

Not to say that any baseball rule affects the world of softball, but...ASA adopted this same ruling several years later. It was published on their website, under their "Play Clarifications" page in the umpires section. The ruling is still there- see April 2008 play clarifications.

 

[default]

Once the umpire says "batter's out" then it is a dead ball aside from other live runners and the batter who is out certainly cannot just be allowed to run down the base line after being called out.. I'm not talking about touching the ground or tips I'm saying a clean strike three with batters out call where the runner runs to and through first base..

What is a "dead, but not really dead, dead ball"? There's no such thing as a ball being dead for some of the players, but live for some of the others. It's either dead or live...can't be both!

There's no rule that prevents a batter out on strikes from running anywhere on the field. It's not in and of itself a rule violation.

This batter is already out. What penalty do you suppose there is if she does run? She can't be called out twice!

 

[default]

No goof! This has been a long-debated play that only in recent years has been clarified through official interpretations.

Example: Two strikes on the batter. Pitch bounces before reaching the plate. Batter swings, barely nicks the ball, and it goes sharply and directly to the catcher's mitt and is caught.

The debate had always been: Is this an uncaught third strike or a foul tip? For the former, the batter would become a batter-runner with the right to advance to first base. For the latter, the batter would be out on strike three with the foul tip.

The first sanctioning body to issue an interpretation of this play was actually Major League Baseball. They ruled that this is a foul tip (ie: strike three and the batter is out). The reasoning is that once the ball is contacted by the bat, it is essentially no longer "a pitch". It is now "a batted ball" and thus subject to all of the usual rules covering batted balls- including the foul tip rule.

Not to say that any baseball rule affects the world of softball, but...ASA adopted this same ruling several years later. It was published on their website, under their "Play Clarifications" page in the umpires section. The ruling is still there- see March 2008 play clarifications.

Two strikes on the batter. The pitcher pitches the ball, the batter foul tips it before the pitched ball hits the ground, goes directly into the catchers mitt and is secured. Is this not a caught 3rd strike?

Len

 

[default]

I believe the attempt of this thread is to find a way to penalize a batter for trying to deceive a defense by running to first base after a strike out call, probably to confuse the defense and allow runner/runners to advance.

As Bretman mentioned you're not going to find a rule to support it. It is up to the defense to know the situation and know when or if there is a play. The older and more experience the players, the less chance of seeing any of this have an effect.

 

[default]

Len, your situation IS a caught third strike.

The other offer by Bretman that is very interesting points out that even a pitched ball that hits the ground before reaching the plate can be played by the batter. If the batter swings at a skipped ball and foul-tip's it into the catcher's mitt and it is the third strike, this becomes a caught ball since the batter chose to play it. No need for the defense to make a play(tag/throw).

 

[default]

Once the umpire says "batter's out" then it is a dead ball aside from other live runners and the batter who is out certainly cannot just be allowed to run down the base line after being called out.. I'm not talking about touching the ground or tips I'm saying a clean strike three with batters out call where the runner runs to and through first base..

It may seem pointless to a casual observer, but a batter running to first after a "strike-three, batter's out" is harmless as long as there is no interference or delay of game on her part. I know a very talented coach that required his young kids always run. While conventional thinking may reason that's it's stupid and a waste of time, I know MANY discipline oriented reasons why it was done, and I soon learned why this coach produced some excellent DI college players.

And yes, his catchers knew not to throw down in those situations...

 

[default]

Two strikes on the batter. The pitcher pitches the ball, the batter foul tips it before the pitched ball hits the ground, goes directly into the catchers mitt and is secured. Is this not a caught 3rd strike?

That would a foul tip which, by rule and definition, MUST be a caught batted ball. If it's not caught it's not a foul tip, it becomes just a plain old foul ball.

I guess that you could consider it a caught third strike, but the foul tip takes precedence. Either way, the batter is out. If this same exact thing happened, except the ball was not caught, the opposite would not be true. It would never be an uncaught third strike because the bat contacted the ball.

 

[default]

Here is a twist....what if it is a dropped third strike by any of the definitions but the umpire calls the batter out.

 

[default]

That would a foul tip which, by rule and definition, MUST be a caught batted ball. If it's not caught it's not a foul tip, it becomes just a plain old foul ball.

I guess that you could consider it a caught third strike, but the foul tip takes precedence. Either way, the batter is out. If this same exact thing happened, except the ball was not caught, the opposite would not be true. It would never be an uncaught third strike because the bat contacted the ball.

Ahh....I see. Foul tip takes precedence....got it. Could you please explain the difference between a foul tip and a fould ball. Many times a catcher catches a batted ball that does not go straight into the catchers mitt. When does the rules consider a batted ball to be a foul ball instead of a foul tip? You always hear people scream, "It didn't go up three feet!" I had a situation where a girl squared to bunt on the first pitch, the ball did not hit the ground and the ball hit the bat and popped up about a foot and my catcher caught it. The umpire calls it an out initially and the other coach claimed it did not go three feet up in the air. The umpire reversed the call and considered it a foul tip instead. What's the correct call?

 

[default]

Here is a twist....what if it is a dropped third strike by any of the definitions but the umpire calls the batter out.

This is exactly the reason why the correct umpire mechanic taught on strike three is to only say or signal, "Strike three" or "Strike". We are taught to NOT add "Batter out" as part of our normal third strike call.

If you routinely say "Batter out" on EVERY third strike, you are eventually going to say it sometime when the batter is NOT out (like on an uncaught third strike). Now you've just created a huge problem for yourself, you are probably going to have an angry coach to deal with, you are obligated to straighten out this mess and, when you do, there's a good chance that the other coach is going to be mad at you.

This falls under the jurisdiction of rule 10 which requires the umpire to correct any situation where a delayed or reversed call puts either team in jeopardy. Calling the batter out might cause the batter to stop running when she's not really out. It might cause the defense to stop playing, or cause them to make a different play than they would have had the batter not been declared out.

The remedy for correcting this is...whatever the umpire judges would be needed to correct the effects of his reversed call. This could involve having the out stand, or possibly placing the batter on first base. It would depend on how the players reacted, where the ball was and all the other circumstances of the play.

It's bound to get ugly and one coach or the other isn't going to like what you come up with! So much confusion that can all be avoided just by following a basic, simple umpire mechanic: DON'T say "Batter out" as part of your normal third strike call!

 

[default]

Ahh....I see. Foul tip takes precedence....got it. Could you please explain the difference between a foul tip and a fould ball. Many times a catcher catches a batted ball that does not go straight into the catchers mitt. When does the rules consider a batted ball to be a foul ball instead of a foul tip? You always hear people scream, "It didn't go up three feet!" I had a situation where a girl squared to bunt on the first pitch, the ball did not hit the ground and the ball hit the bat and popped up about a foot and my catcher caught it. The umpire calls it an out initially and the other coach claimed it did not go three feet up in the air. The umpire reversed the call and considered it a foul tip instead. What's the correct call?

Blue should have stuck with his initial call. Sounds like he got talked out of one by a coach!

A foul tip- which is treated the same as a swing and a miss- is when the ball goes (as the rule puts it) "sharply and directly" (as if in a straight line) directly from the bat to the catcher.

A "fly ball" is when the ball does not go "in a straight line" to the catcher, but instead takes an arcing path off the bat. Such a batted ball can be caught for an out anywhere on the field, just the same as any other batted fly ball, over either fair or foul ground.

Forget about the ball going "three feet" or "higher than the batter's head" or any of that nonsense. Those are just long-standing rule myths that have ZERO, NOTHING, NADA to do with the actual rule.